Whalen v Handgun Permit Review Board Appeal Brief Filed

Occam · Jul 29, 2019

esqappellate said:
Tell that to the Hagerstown bailsman who was arrested for being outside his restrictions. Or the Ocean City permit holder who was arrested for only this offense in stopping a knife attack. I say BS

And even if (stipulating just for argument’s sake) the MSP itself is warm and fuzzy about it, there are dozens of other agencies and thousands of individuals with arrest powers for whom the MSP can’t speak.

welder516 · Jul 29, 2019

esqappellate said:
Tell that to the Hagerstown bailsman who was arrested for being outside his restrictions. Or the Ocean City permit holder who was arrested for only this offense in stopping a knife attack. I say BS

I understand that very point , he chuckled at me for being concerned . But your point is well received by me . :thumbsup:

aquaman · Jul 29, 2019

esqappellate said:
Just a note on the costs. I am counsel on the case (I'm on the cover) and I can tell you that that printing costs and shipping costs (to serve) were over $800.00. That is just the cost to have someone print the brief and the Record Extracts in sufficient number of copies and to serve them on opposing counsel. And as we take it up the food chain, those kinds of basic costs get even higher. Don't sit on the sidelines.

Lol have you guys heard of email and PDF?

dblas · Jul 29, 2019

GTOGUNNER said:
What happens when the HPRB goes away in January as we expect it will? Does the state argue the case is moot as the board will cease to exist?

Nope, the MSP still rely on Snowden and Scherr as controlling law and apparently the OAH and the Circuit Courts do as well.

Occam · Jul 29, 2019

aquaman said:
Lol have you guys heard of email and PDF?

That’s NOT how it works. Which you must know.

aquaman · Jul 29, 2019

Occam said:
That’s NOT how it works. Which you must know.

It doesn't sound like it's working at all.

esqappellate · Jul 29, 2019

aquaman said:
Lol have you guys heard of email and PDF?

Well, the Court of Special Appeals hasn't, at least in cases not subject to electronic filing (this case was not). A *lot* of paper copies plus service copies.

esqappellate · Jul 29, 2019

dblas said:
Nope, the MSP still rely on Snowden and Scherr as controlling law and apparently the OAH and the Circuit Courts do as well.

Plus, the case isn't moot as the applicant is still contesting the denial. All that would change would be that the remand would not go to the Board but to the successor agency, which would be in this case would be the OAH.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 29, 2019

It's not that we don't believe that Welder516's friend is 100% accurate in relatinh his conversations , but rather :

1. Verbal assurances aren't worth the paper their written on .
2. Wink wink, nod nod agreements usually disappear when somthing becomes high profile in the media.

And of course ;

3. This iz the MSP . Not only do we Make Stuff Up , but the Stuff We Make Up , frequently changes from week to week .

Stoveman · Jul 29, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
DE and CT are actually Shall Issue, albeit with lots of hassles .

CA and NY are indeed May Issue statewide , albeit in some jurisdictions , the " May " in practice is Usually .

CT was no hassle for me, unless you count writing the most expensive permit check a hassle. They even sent a renewal form, something that MSP doesn't do, about three months prior to expiration.

Deep Lurker · Jul 29, 2019

I am very encouraged by MSI’s lawsuit.

My college constitutional law professor repeated in class an old saying from the dawn of the 20th century: “The Supreme Court follows the election returns.”

It is time to update this: “Half of the Supreme Court watches Fox News.”

Regardless which 2A case(s) they choose to hear, national news coverage of MSI’s case adds to our 2A civil rights momentum.

Thank you Fox News and MSI:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/gun-rights-group-sues-to-overturn-concealed-carry-law

(H/T Jack Ryan, post #50 this thread.)

welder516 · Jul 30, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
It's not that we don't believe that Welder516's friend is 100% accurate in relatinh his conversations , but rather :

1. Verbal assurances aren't worth the paper their written on .
2. Wink wink, nod nod agreements usually disappear when somthing becomes high profile in the media.

And of course ;

3. This iz the MSP . Not only do we Make Stuff Up , but the Stuff We Make Up , frequently changes from week to week .

You are so correct , if a permit holder had to use the firearm in defense of life , I can see a lot of questions asked at that time if the permit holder was carrying within restrictions .
That is when the rubber hits the road and that verbal assurance goes out the window .

fidelity · Jul 30, 2019

esqappellate said:
Plus, the case isn't moot as the applicant is still contesting the denial. All that would change would be that the remand would not go to the Board but to the successor agency, which would be in this case would be the OAH.

Even with this provision, is there a strategic or other legal reason that the HPRB was named instead of the State Police LD?

nedsurf · Jul 30, 2019

esqappellate said:
Well, the Court of Special Appeals hasn't, at least in cases not subject to electronic filing (this case was not). A *lot* of paper copies plus service copies.

I'm surprised that everything hasn't gone to e-filing. I guess that court still has a bunch of clerks to take filings, Bates stamp etc...

lazarus · Jul 30, 2019

danb said:
And not even all of NY or CA, just certain counties.

No, it is all of those states. Just because the sheriff might happen to hand them out like candy in parts of those states doesn’t mean an election doesn’t result in de facto blanket denials in that county.

I know I am unpopular for saying I don’t have a serious issue with there being some requirements to get a permit. But a reason other than “I’ve chosen to exercise my right to bear arms”.

PS I don’t know exactly what is a reasonable training requirement beyond “none”. As convoluted as firearm and self defense laws can be different places a class instructing people in those basics as well as at least a short firearm safety class probably. If you’ve got a good and substantial reason the class requirement waived and just has to be taken within 6 months maybe? Take in to account those with stated threats against themselves who need a permit ASAP.

danb · Jul 30, 2019

lazarus said:
No, it is all of those states. Just because the sheriff might happen to hand them out like candy in parts of those states doesn’t mean an election doesn’t result in de facto blanket denials in that county.

I know I am unpopular for saying I don’t have a serious issue with there being some requirements to get a permit. But a reason other than “I’ve chosen to exercise my right to bear arms”.

PS I don’t know exactly what is a reasonable training requirement beyond “none”. As convoluted as firearm and self defense laws can be different places a class instructing people in those basics as well as at least a short firearm safety class probably. If you’ve got a good and substantial reason the class requirement waived and just has to be taken within 6 months maybe? Take in to account those with stated threats against themselves who need a permit ASAP.

I might agree with you, except that the parade of horribles from Constitutional Carry (what, 15 states now?) has not happened.

People can get a FL or VA carry with nothing more than a hunting license. For a hunting license in MD you need to shoot one shotgun shell. In Texas, its zero. You can get an HQL in MD with Texas online hunter safety, but before that it was a 10 minute video online. How many accidents in the home did we have?

There is nothing in hunter safety that addresses proper holster retention or self defense. FOPA is not covered. I have Constitutionally carried in WV, and nothing happened (as do a lot of other people).

People have been carrying guns for 1000 years. People who are stupid are far more more likely to shoot themselves than other people. And of course, even with a lot of training (ahem, FBI), maybe you do a back flip at a party and your gun falls out and your gun goes off. People tend to be cautious with explosive charges inside the waistband! Training does not fix stupid.

So, I might agree with you, except that there is almost zero evidence of any safety or other problem with the over 15 million lawful CCW holders who mostly carry with not much training. The overwhelming evidence is that "training" is just another word for "barrier."

Your fear is irrational... but if you have some evidence otherwise I'd love to see it and my mind might be changed.

Inigoes · Jul 30, 2019

A story made the local news in Saint Marys this morning. The newscast even listed MSI.

CypherPunk · Jul 30, 2019

lazarus said:
No, it is all of those states. Just because the sheriff might happen to hand them out like candy in parts of those states doesn’t mean an election doesn’t result in de facto blanket denials in that county.

I know I am unpopular for saying I don’t have a serious issue with there being some requirements to get a permit. But a reason other than “I’ve chosen to exercise my right to bear arms”.

PS I don’t know exactly what is a reasonable training requirement beyond “none”. As convoluted as firearm and self defense laws can be different places a class instructing people in those basics as well as at least a short firearm safety class probably. If you’ve got a good and substantial reason the class requirement waived and just has to be taken within 6 months maybe? Take in to account those with stated threats against themselves who need a permit ASAP.

I agree and think people should also have to successfully complete classroom training before exercising their first amendment rights.

There should be a day of training on grammar, a day of spelling and at least a half day on “forward this to everyone in your address book” scams and fraud.

Newspaper reporters should have anti bias training before reporting any story.

Maybe all news should be vetted by a bipartisan govt agency before broadcast.

So what if the govt is on strike, there is civil unrest or budget shortfalls.

We can and must do better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

welder516 · Jul 30, 2019

CypherPunk said:
I agree and think people should also have to successfully complete classroom training before exercising their first amendment rights.

There should be a day of training on grammar, a day of spelling and at least a half day on “forward this to everyone in your address book” scams and fraud.

Newspaper reporters should have anti bias training before reporting any story.

Maybe all news should be vetted by a bipartisan govt agency before broadcast.

So what if the govt is on strike, there is civil unrest or budget shortfalls.

We can and must do better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Priceless

Biggfoot44 · Jul 30, 2019

Would I personally recommend a level of fundamental skills and useful knowledge as being wise and prudent ? You betcha !

But just like * Blood in the Streets ! * , we don't have to speculate . There are already a number of States in each catagory -( no training , vague requirements that virtually everyone already meets, and very long, specific mantated course outline only ) . And no appreciable difference in accidental or mistaken shootings between them .

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