Castle Doctrine in MD...a question

swinokur · Aug 30, 2010

edhallor said:
It's been a while, thank God some things have changed for the better.
It's great to know another honest citizen will have to face this atrocity.
What about LEO do we still face Federal Civil Rights Violations since technically we have placed ourselves On Duty?

Ed

1983 is still on the books. IIRC.

Norton · Aug 30, 2010

Straightshooter said:
Does anyone have a link to the Castle Doctrine law that is to go into affect? I figure if Frosh let it out of committee, the house and Senate approved it and O'Malley signed it, there's got to be a catch.

Not Castle Doctrine, which is already codified in MD case law. The bill that was passed was a civil immunity bill.

The bill can be found here:

http://mlis.state.md.us/2010rs/chapters_noln/Ch_555_sb0411E.pdf

edhallor · Aug 30, 2010

mikec said:
Let's not forget a few other things. Unless you use a suppressor on your home defense gun, another can of worms for another time, your hearing may be impaired if you are forced to shoot. You may not hear the police enter your home. Unless the officer knows you, expect to have the officer point his weapon at you and treat you like the bad guy. Don't get pissy with the LEO, they just want a safe crime scene.

If you go to the hospital or are treated by medics on scene, watch what you say. You don't know who is listening.

I noted that one a while back in a true case where my Brother in Law a LEO in the SWD shot a Doctor in a Burglary case when a guy turned on Paul with a gun in his hand, failed to drop it on command, failed to Identify himself and Paul shot him.

Luckily the bullet deflected off the Doctor's Belt Buckle.

The Doctor responded on a call from ADT and beat the Police to his Office, he lived around the block from the Office.

On a funny side to that I had a guy PM me six times insisting Paul go back for firearm training because Paul hit the suspect in the Buckle in a dark staircase instead of a kill shot.
And he was absolutely serious, hounded me for two Weeks.

Good Point on Police entering the home.

Eddie O

mybreathyourlung · Aug 30, 2010

Gun defense question

I know there are some MSP/city police on this board so perhaps you can help me with a few hypotheticals concerning the protection aspect of gun ownership.

I live in central Baltimore City and although I've never had a serious incident, the possibility is certainly something I'm aware of. I assume that when dealing with gun law and an intruder breaking into your home all sorts of factors come into play when deciding my legal fate: intruder w/weapon or w/o? What kind of weapon? Did I point the gun? Did I fire? Where were they when I fired? Did I wound or kill? As well as many other factors I'm not aware of.

If someone were to break into my home, (with or without a weapon), and I brandished my handgun and they attacked and I fired (wounded or killed), what should I expect after my guns and me are taken downtown?

Sthomas229 · Aug 30, 2010

There's some good info in this thread.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=42331

Boondock Saint · Aug 30, 2010

There's another thread going on right now, in addition to the others on the matter. Here's the quick story:

1) You cannot present deadly force without deadly force being presented to you, even in your own home.

2) Civil law presently allows a perpetrator (or his surviving family) to sue you in civil court for damages, suffering, all sorts of BS, even if it is determined that you didn't commit a crime. This will change on October 1, 2010. At that point, if you are not found criminally liable by the state, you cannot be found civilly liable either.

3) As for the aftermath, keep your mouth shut. You'll be treated like a criminal in your home until the police can determine that you're the good guy. Comply respectfully, but do not talk to them without your attorney present.

4) Keep your mouth shut.

Sthomas229 · Aug 30, 2010

Boondock Saint said:
There's another thread going on right now, in addition to the others on the matter. Here's the quick story:

1) You cannot present deadly force without deadly force being presented to you, even in your own home.

2) Civil law presently allows a perpetrator (or his surviving family) to sue you in civil court for damages, suffering, all sorts of BS, even if it is determined that you didn't commit a crime. This will change on October 1, 2010. At that point, if you are not found criminally liable by the state, you cannot be found civilly liable either.

3) As for the aftermath, keep your mouth shut. You'll be treated like a criminal in your home until the police can determine that you're the good guy. Comply respectfully, but do not talk to them without your attorney present.

4) Keep your mouth shut.

QFT
But if you do open your mouth, "I thought he was going to kill me/us"

Straightshooter · Aug 30, 2010

Thanks Norton.

X-Factor · Aug 30, 2010

mikec said:
Let's not forget a few other things. Unless you use a suppressor on your home defense gun, another can of worms for another time, your hearing may be impaired if you are forced to shoot. You may not hear the police enter your home. Unless the officer knows you, expect to have the officer point his weapon at you and treat you like the bad guy. Don't get pissy with the LEO, they just want a safe crime scene.

If you go to the hospital or are treated by medics on scene, watch what you say. You don't know who is listening.

I can say with 100% certainty that my hearing is not affected indoors when an unsuppressed handgun goes off. Can't make the same statement with my 12ga, but then again in MY house my handgun is my weapon of choice if I have to clear the house...

Thanks for all the opinions. Looks like I was over analyzing. Again.

WeaponsCollector · Aug 30, 2010

Goose Guy said:
Honestly, whether castle doctrine is in effect or not, my response will be the same. If you break into my house, you are getting raped with a shotgun.

rch184 · Aug 30, 2010

Truth is most police are on your side when someone breaks into your home to commit a crime. You don't know their intent, so when do you stop them. Your trouble is when an over zealous lawyer from down town gets their hands on the report from the officer. After twisting and turning your statements your looking at 25 in the big house for murder. Good info from a police Capt., Shut Up and Call Your Lawyer. Some people want to make a bigger paycheck at your expense. God Bless America!

JOBU · Aug 31, 2010

X-Factor said:
I know that you do NOT have to retreat in your home, but let's use a scenario that I know we have ALL encountered.

Late night, you wake up (or are woken up by your SO) to a noise in the house. No easily explainable reason, and you decide to check it out. Personally, I won't do so without my handgun at minimum (makes more sense in my house). If I see an intruder (or suspected one in the first place), and shooting is necessary due to him having a knife, gun, etc (meeting the requirements for a justified use of deadly force), does this ACTUALLY make it justified? My question is that you left your room and went searching for the cause of the noise, and did it armed, if that could be seen as "hunting". Should you just remain in your bedroom if you hear what may be an intruder in your house?

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mybreathyourlung · Aug 31, 2010

I kind of assumed that most Baltimore City cops/judges would understand my situation and probably be lenient with me, but that someone's lawyer is the thing I'd have to worry about.

Thanks for the link, I tried looking around before starting the thread, guess I just missed it!

HardHatMan · Aug 31, 2010

I would not open my mouth to anyone without my lawyer there, and neither would anyone in my family, if I was involved in a shooting. Another thing, you don't have to explain to anyone why you were carrying a gun in YOUR home. It's your property and you can carry on it.

mybreathyourlung · Aug 31, 2010

X-Factor said:
My question is that you left your room and went searching for the cause of the noise, and did it armed, if that could be seen as "hunting". Should you just remain in your bedroom if you hear what may be an intruder in your house?

Remember, your scenario with 'hunting' only concerns you. If you wake up to "a weird noise" and go downstairs with your handgun and it's an armed robber, you don't have to tell the police "I just heard a weird noise.", you can say that you heard a persons voice, even if you didn't, no one would be the wiser.

3rdRcn · Aug 31, 2010

Boondock Saint said:
There's another thread going on right now, in addition to the others on the matter. Here's the quick story:

1) You cannot present deadly force without deadly force being presented to you, even in your own home.

2) Civil law presently allows a perpetrator (or his surviving family) to sue you in civil court for damages, suffering, all sorts of BS, even if it is determined that you didn't commit a crime. This will change on October 1, 2010. At that point, if you are not found criminally liable by the state, you cannot be found civilly liable either.

3) As for the aftermath, keep your mouth shut. You'll be treated like a criminal in your home until the police can determine that you're the good guy. Comply respectfully, but do not talk to them without your attorney present.

4) Keep your mouth shut.

I don't think that #1 is correct and you have mentioned it in the other thread as well, you must be in fear of grave bodily harm or death to defend yourself in your home, I am not aware of any law or case law that says different. When outside your home is where the equal force is more enforceable I think. Maybe one of our attorneys can chime in on this.

Boondock Saint · Aug 31, 2010

3rdRcn said:
I don't think that #1 is correct and you have mentioned it in the other thread as well, you must be in fear of grave bodily harm or death to defend yourself in your home, I am not aware of any law or case law that says different. When outside your home is where the equal force is more enforceable I think. Maybe one of our attorneys can chime in on this.

The actual text of the law is silent on the issue, to my knowledge. Wiki is a poor source and I can't independently confirm as yet, but here it is anyway:

Duty-to-retreat

By common law, some self defense in Maryland requires duty-to-retreat. Maryland at present, has no "Castle Doctrine" exception set down in statutory law per se, [1] but does have case law indicating duty to retreat does not apply when attacked in one's home. Other exceptions to duty to retreat are being the victim of a robbery, situations where the imminent peril of attack makes retreat impossible or retreat would not remove the danger (i.e. a physically injured or disabled person trying to flee from an able-bodied attacker). See Marquardt v. State, 164 Md. App. 95, 140 (2005). See also Sydnor v. State, 365 Md. 205, 216, A.2d 669, 675 (2001).

Meeting the duty-to-retreat criteria

The duty-to-retreat criteria can be met under two different circumstances. And, in both circumstances, the actions must be considered against the actions of a reasonable person in the same situation.

The first circumstance can be met when the individual is in a location where retreat is possible. It is met when the individual does, in fact, retreat but retreats to a location where they can safely retreat no further. Thus the situation results in some type of self defense.

The second circumstance can be met when the individual is in a location where retreat is not possible. This is a location where the individual has no known avenues of safe retreat. The issue of whether the avenues do exist are irrelevant, as long as the individual is unaware of their existence. Also, the avenue must always be an avenue of safe retreat.Self-defense

If the duty-to-retreat criteria is met, then the following self defense criteria are examined, as contained within the Maryland Criminal Pattern Jury Instruction. Optional or alternate inclusions into the jury instruction are enclosed with < >. Phrases surrounded with () are substituted with specific instances of the case.

Self-defense (MPJI-Cr 5:07)

Self-defense is a defense, and the defendant must be found not guilty if all of the following three factors are present:

* 1) The defendant actually believed that <he> <she> was in immediate and imminent danger of bodily harm.
* 2) The defendant's belief was reasonable.
* 3) The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend <himself> <herself> in light of the threatened or actual harm.

<Deadly-force is that amount of force reasonably calculated to cause death or serious bodily harm. If the defendant is found to have used deadly-force, it must be decided whether the use of deadly-force was reasonable. Deadly-force is reasonable if the defendant actually had a reasonable belief that the aggressor's force was or would be deadly and that the defendant needed a deadly-force response.>

<In addition, before using deadly-force, the defendant is required to make all reasonable effort to retreat. The defendant does not have to retreat if the defendant was in <his> <her> home, retreat was unsafe, the avenue of retreat was unknown to the defendant, the defendant was being robbed, the defendant was lawfully arresting the victim. If the defendant was found to have not used deadly-force, then the defendant had no duty to retreat.>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_self-defense

The abbreviation MPJI stands for Maryland Criminal Pattern Jury Instruction.

So yes, there's no specific requirement that deadly force against you be applied, just that you had a reasonable belief of such.

Personally, I believe that someone breaking into my home when someone might expect its occupants to be home a deadly threat, after all, the scumbag figures I'm home, so he can assume I'm armed in some fashion. Law be damned, if something goes thump in the night, if I decide to check it out, it won't be with just a flashlight in one hand and my pecker in the other.

3rdRcn · Aug 31, 2010

Boondock Saint said:
You can only present deadly force if threatened with the same.

I believe this is something you are not interpreting correctly, one must be in fear of grave bodily injury or death to use deadly force. It is also my understanding that you can in fact shoot an unarmed man as long as the above condition is met and would be interpreted the same by a reasonable person. Maybe one of our lawyers will chime in on this.

Lex Armarum · Aug 31, 2010

3rdRcn said:
I don't think that #1 is correct and you have mentioned it in the other thread as well, you must be in fear of grave bodily harm or death to defend yourself in your home, I am not aware of any law or case law that says different. When outside your home is where the equal force is more enforceable I think. Maybe one of our attorneys can chime in on this.

As stated in other threads and numerous times:

When in your home you do not have to retreat. The only thing required of a home owner to defend himself and his family INSIDE his home is a REASONABLE FEAR of imminent death OR serious bodily injury. If you do shoot an intruder, call 911, don't talk to the police until your lawyer arrives. You have 5th Amendment rights, use them.

I am a lawyer. This is not legal advice. You have to pay me for that.

3rdRcn · Aug 31, 2010

I see nothing that says I can only respond with the same force that is presented to me and it does in fact say exactly what I said in my post. I think where you are getting confused is the reading of #3, and I would respond with "when in doubt, refer to rule #1 and #2. If those two apply then I am well within my legal right to shoot an unarmed man.

In regards to the "Castle Doctrine", this was in fact a doctrine based on case law and Maryland is one of the oldest states to hold a "castle doctrine" based case law history. The current "Castle Doctrine" laws are far more than the old "your home is your castle" type that was the original "Castle Doctrine".

Castle Doctrine in MD...a question

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