Hypothetically speaking...

smores · Jun 12, 2012

Ok. Let's say Alpha Alpherson wants to build an SBR, but the upper he wants is on sale. He does not want to have constructive posession, but for some reason wants to maintain posession of this upper while a Form 1 to register his only AR lower as an SBR is pending. Can Alpha purchase and posess this upper, and lend the lower to his buddy Bravo Bravzczhinski while the Form 1 is pending?

Once the Form 1 is approved, then the lower would be engraved and then of course we know Alpha can assemble his complete AR.

If the word problem is too complicated let me try and ask it another way. If one person is registering a short-barreled AR-15 rifle (in the form of a lower, either built or stripped, doesn't matter) on a Form 1 (they are the manufacturer), can another non-prohibited person posess the lower in its non-NFA form until the form comes back in order to prevent constructive posession? I know the easy answer for this is to give the upper to someone else who already has a registered lower, or no AR receivers at all... but of course someone I'm helping out insists on wanting to keep their upper while the paperwork goes through...

erwos · Jun 12, 2012

You want to engrave after they cash your check.

Your lower is not an SBR until the paperwork is approved. You can do whatever you want (legally) with the lower until then.

The reality of the matter is that constructive possession is a completely overblown worry, and if you aren't stupid, the ATF is not going to 1) know or 2) care.

smores · Jun 12, 2012

erwos said:
You want to engrave after they cash your check.

Your lower is not an SBR until the paperwork is approved. You can do whatever you want (legally) with the lower until then.

Thanks. Have done a few Form 4s myself but never a Form 1, good to know.

erwos · Jun 12, 2012

smores said:
Thanks. Have done a few Form 4s myself but never a Form 1, good to know.

Remember, IANAL. I am only telling you my understanding of the law. Depending on who you talk to, your lower might not even be an SBR until you actually assemble it as such.

bcr229 · Jun 12, 2012

Engrave the lower before filing the Form 1. If you do it after the Form 1 is approved and the engraver messes up (it happens, we're human), now you've got a Title II lower with info that doesn't match the Form 1.

coynedogg · Jun 12, 2012

BATF SAYS

'A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm.'

Note: It does not say you have to assemble the firearm. It clearly states, "Prior to the acquisition of the parts required".

If you possess and AR15 lower receiver and don't like playing legal roulette I'd wait for the next sale.

IMBLITZVT · Jun 12, 2012

smores said:
Thanks. Have done a few Form 4s myself but never a Form 1, good to know.

So we got a few Form 4s and now a Form 1... yeah you have enough money to get into FA... you just need the will to do so.

HT4 · Jun 12, 2012

Assuming the receiver is not already registered as a rifle, why not just throw a pistol buffer on it until the SBR stamp comes in?

Flipz · Jun 13, 2012

This is the problem I see with what you are proposing.

Say you purchase this upper, and lend the lower to your friend until the Form1 is approved. Once the Form1 is approved and entered into the registry there will be a delay until the approved Form1 returns to you. During this time however, the lower is already registered as an SBR, and now your friend is in illegal possession of an SBR lower. I would not want to be your friend in this situation. That is unless the lower is registered to a trust that your friend is named in.

If I were in your shoes I'd do the reverse. Buy the upper and when it arrives have your friend hold onto it for safe keeping. Once your Form1 comes back, retrieve the upper and head to the range.

ThawMyTongue · Jun 13, 2012

HT4 said:
Assuming the receiver is not already registered as a rifle, why not just throw a pistol buffer on it until the SBR stamp comes in?

This was my plan... Build a pistol, then wait for stamp to buy and add stock. Maybe someone could weigh in on that avenue.

teratos · Jun 13, 2012

I'm doing that with a 9mm AR build. I am putting a pistol buffer tube on it until my Form 1 is approved. That way, I can have the upper I want already assembled, and even shoot it while I wait. All I have to do is put a stock on it once my stamp comes. I know some people have been worried about doing this, but I cannot see how it is illegal. An AR pistol (if build from a virgin lower) is perfectly legal here. It doesn't magically become illegal if you send in a Form 1. I got a Spike's pistol buffer tube, castle nut for $50.

erwos · Jun 13, 2012

Technically, you don't even need to put a pistol buffer on... you can use a carbine tube, just don't have a loose stock lying around. I prefer to just leave mine stripped, that seems safest.

smores · Jun 13, 2012

coynedogg said:
BATF SAYS

'A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm.'

Note: It does not say you have to assemble the firearm. It clearly states, "Prior to the acquisition of the parts required".

If you possess and AR15 lower receiver and don't like playing legal roulette I'd wait for the next sale.

So you're supposed to register a lower you haven't purchased? How would you know the serial number? It was always my understanding that ANY AR-15 in a legal non-NFA (16"+ or pistol) can be processed via Form 1, and the weapon can be assembled and used as a non-NFA rifle until the Form 1 is approved - at which time you can install any length upper.

I.E., you buy a Colt 6700 Match Target rifle and for some reason want to throw a 10.3" Mk18 Upper on there - go ahead and do your Form 1 and continue shooting it with the HBAR upper until your stamp comes back... right?

I don't know why my buddy wants to keep the upper in his posession rather than the lower. I know he doesn't have an AR yet, he's just excited about the first build. Since I have a stamp, I should be good to have a spare upper laying around. Then again I have 1 complete lower and will soon have another stripped lower laying around, can I still get nailed for constructive posession if I were to posess other short uppers? I know Chad once said something about putting a blind pin in your short uppers, and machining a small area out of the lower to match so that the protrusion would prevent installation of the short uppers on anything but your SBR lower.

Even having worked at an 07FFL/SOT I never memorized ALL this stuff and still like to double check... Better to be safe than sorry lol.

smores · Jun 13, 2012

IMBLITZVT said:
So we got a few Form 4s and now a Form 1... yeah you have enough money to get into FA... you just need the will to do so.

I have an SBR and a can... which altogether I paid maybe $3k for the whole setup including optics. If I got anything full auto it would be a DIAS for the ARs or an HK sear pack, then several HK SBRs. However if I had $16k I would definitely buy a new car first.

Maybe when I find out my long-distant lost uncle died and he owned oil shale land in a couple years, and I get a princely sum, I can get into it. lol. Because if I have a machinegun I'm going to want to shoot the piss out of it, and I can't afford ammo by the pallet yet.

IMBLITZVT · Jun 13, 2012

smores said:
I have an SBR and a can... which altogether I paid maybe $3k for the whole setup including optics. If I got anything full auto it would be a DIAS for the ARs or an HK sear pack, then several HK SBRs. However if I had $16k I would definitely buy a new car first.

The blind pin is a nice idea but I don't think that would stop the ATF if they wanted you. It could not take 2 mins with a dremil and that pin would be gone. So still have the problem... Just because you add a little extra pain does not really mean much unless its really going to take long to change back.

Well now we are being picky on FA our we? Thats kind of like saying I want a race car but can't afford one. Oh but if I were to get one I would not get anything less than a ferrari so I can't afford it... Hell I want a M16 with a Shrike on it but I can't afford that yet either...

I have $2.5K in my M11 and $800 in the slow fire upper for a total of $3.3K and I bet you would have more fun with it than your SBR with a can.

For $500ish you can buy a 22 conversion for it and then you can afford to shoot the piss out of it!

Yeah it might not be your dream gun but who can afford their dream gun?

coynedogg · Jun 13, 2012

smores said:
So you're supposed to register a lower you haven't purchased? How would you know the serial number? It was always my understanding that ANY AR-15 in a legal non-NFA (16"+ or pistol) can be processed via Form 1, and the weapon can be assembled and used as a non-NFA rifle until the Form 1 is approved - at which time you can install any length upper.

I.E., you buy a Colt 6700 Match Target rifle and for some reason want to throw a 10.3" Mk18 Upper on there - go ahead and do your Form 1 and continue shooting it with the HBAR upper until your stamp comes back... right?

I don't know why my buddy wants to keep the upper in his posession rather than the lower. I know he doesn't have an AR yet, he's just excited about the first build. Since I have a stamp, I should be good to have a spare upper laying around. Then again I have 1 complete lower and will soon have another stripped lower laying around, can I still get nailed for constructive posession if I were to posess other short uppers? I know Chad once said something about putting a blind pin in your short uppers, and machining a small area out of the lower to match so that the protrusion would prevent installation of the short uppers on anything but your SBR lower.

Even having worked at an 07FFL/SOT I never memorized ALL this stuff and still like to double check... Better to be safe than sorry lol.

I also had an FFL/MDPRDL. Its my understanding (I'd email BATF/MSP with the questions because I'm no lawyer) you have to be in possession of a registered SBR receiver prior to purchasing any short barrels for that sort of weapon.

To my knowledge there is no limit to the number of barrels (parts) you can possess for a single registered SBR receiver. You could hold the extra upper for someone then transfer it to them when they have the stamp. A person without the stamp should not be in possession of the parts.

You can use the weapon prior to receiving the SBR approval, but not as an SBR. Once the lower is registered you can swap upper lengths at will.

I believe: possession of the uppers are what they are really concerned with.. registration of the lowers is just a convenient way of tracking who has paid the tax on the ability to install an SBR upper.

About the lowers, ATF SAYS: "A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer."

"If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nat...t-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#receiver-sale

mudskipper · Jun 14, 2012

Keep a few virgin stripped lowers around and you don't have to worry about C.P. Boogeyman.

Problem solved.

netcentry · May 27, 2014

Most people who have or build an AR Pistol, may also have spare AR stock, or regular AR15 with stock. What differs this situation from Constructive Possession?

armed ferret · May 27, 2014

there's no such thing as constructive possession.

the term is "constructive intent".

and the point is, if you have an AR pistol lower, then that provides reasonable doubt as to the government's claim you have "constructive intent" to build an illegal SBR. obviously if you have a lower with a pistol buffer tube, then there's no way they could say the only reason you bought a short-barreled upper was to make an illegal SBR.

if you don't have any lowers with a pistol buffer tube, you could well be very screwed. it's a fairly inexpensive bit of insurance.

bobthefisher · May 28, 2014

netcentry said:
Most people who have or build an AR Pistol, may also have spare AR stock, or regular AR15 with stock. What differs this situation from Constructive Possession?

Normal AR stocks cannot fit onto an AR pistol buffer tube, hence no constructive intent.

Hypothetically speaking...

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