Growler215
Ultimate Member
This.
Note that for an air rifle in MD it only has to be .40 cal or bigger and have 400 ft-lbs muzzle energy.
.45 Long Colt for Deer Hunting
- Thread starter Maki
- Start date
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This.
Note that for an air rifle in MD it only has to be .40 cal or bigger and have 400 ft-lbs muzzle energy.
That right there tells you MD's rifle ME regulation needs to change. I suggest that someone with better writing skills than me write a letter to the DNR and make the case that, if the science shows that a .40 caliber slug from an air rifle is acceptable at only 400 FPE, then the . 45 Colt with a 250 gn bullet should also be acceptable.
OneGunTex
Escaped Member
Maki, I apologize for assuming your level of proficiency and circumstances in which you will be using the 45LC.
I, and Mr. Hawks, was speaking comparatively to your "average" deer hunting rounds and an assumed "average" deer hunter scenario.
I think the reason calibers are limited in terms of energy/velocity/diameter is to limit the number of dumb@$$es who think that they can kill any deer they can take potshots at with whatever ammo is on the shelf because "its killed deer and people for 150 years." There is *ample* evidence that 150 years ago hunters cared a *bunch* less about ethically killing game or managing the resources. Hence, if the DNR were to allow any caliber by all hunters, they would probably have to lower the tag numbers to account for more deer who limp off and die from marginal hits.
By all means, I encourage you to hunt with whatever weapon you can very reliably shoot at your intended range, with the knowledge that your intended round can do near-instant lethal damage for your shot. (Oh, and legally, tho honestly I care less about legal energy technicalities than I do hunters' abilities)
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I, and Mr. Hawks, was speaking comparatively to your "average" deer hunting rounds and an assumed "average" deer hunter scenario.
I think the reason calibers are limited in terms of energy/velocity/diameter is to limit the number of dumb@$$es who think that they can kill any deer they can take potshots at with whatever ammo is on the shelf because "its killed deer and people for 150 years." There is *ample* evidence that 150 years ago hunters cared a *bunch* less about ethically killing game or managing the resources. Hence, if the DNR were to allow any caliber by all hunters, they would probably have to lower the tag numbers to account for more deer who limp off and die from marginal hits.
By all means, I encourage you to hunt with whatever weapon you can very reliably shoot at your intended range, with the knowledge that your intended round can do near-instant lethal damage for your shot. (Oh, and legally, tho honestly I care less about legal energy technicalities than I do hunters' abilities)
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Yeah, I've seen enough on forums about people making "amazing shots", and while I've been hunting for about 20 years now, I still prefer waiting to take the easy shots. I also know that being on private property, I could just ignore regs and do what I want, but I'd rather follow the law because who knows when a game warden will decide to show up outside the gate and want to do a search. I'm still kinda iffy about carrying my Glock while hunting, but we've got several predators on the property and in case I miss with the double barrel, it's nice to have a magazine of backup on me.
That being said, the main field I hunt in is also about 500 yards with a 40ft backstop, but I still won't take my .308's out there because I know if I do, inevitably that'll be the day they show up.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,151
If you compare a .45 Colt rifle to a " Modern Deer Rifle " , it will be severely lacking . If you use your .45 Colt rifle under roughly the same distances and conditions as a .44 Mag Revolver , it will serve very well .
I now christen this idea : * Handgun Hunting with a Rifle *
I now christen this idea : * Handgun Hunting with a Rifle *
Sadly, they may be just as likely as not, to say that 1200 foot pounds should be the standard across the board.
The law is indeed arbitrary. The 45 Colt cartridge has long been renowned for penetration. Through and through is typical. There isn't a deer on this planet that a properly placed bullet from a 45 Colt can't kill. But, flaws and all, they set the standard they set.
Blacksmith101
Grumpy Old Man
- Jun 22, 2012
- 22,267
Unfortunately there are far too many hunters in Maryland who neither know where the proper placement is nor have the ability to reliably hit the proper place if they do know.
That would be illegal. You may only carry one hunting device with you while hunting. There is an exception for those hunting in Zone A while bow hunting deer for bear protection. But the handgun cannot meet Maryland requirements for hunting deer or bear (it has to have a less than 6” barrel). So you cannot carry a .410 and a 22 while squirrel hunting. Or a bow and muzzleloader. Or a 22 for squirrels and a .308 for deer. You could stash them in your vehicle, just not carry them in the field.
Take a handgun or take a rifle. You may not take both. On your property on a tractor, ATV, truck, whatever I don’t think you’d likely ever run in to issues even if an NRP officer decided to surprise you with an inspection. But if you look like you are actively engaged in hunting with a rifle and have a handgun strapped to you, private property or no, you might well get ticketed. “I like to take strolls with a rifle and pistol on MY property” might fly. But sitting up in a tree stand with an orange hat on…would be a much weaker argument.
Maryland requires a handgun to pack at least 700ft-lbs or energy and a rifle 1200ft-lbs. ammunition must also be of “expanding construction”. That could be a discussion on exactly what would meet that definition, but it certainly isn’t a Cowboy action load. And for an ethical shot, it wouldn’t just be shot placement, but also is the bullet designed to do what you are using it for. People have poached deer for more than a century with 22s.
Anyway, you’d need something firing either soft lead that IS supposed to expand at those velocities (a Cowboy load isn’t really going to expand, even using soft lead because the velocity is too low). Or more likely a jacketed hollow point, lead hollow point, or for faster ammunition soft nose jacketed or tipped hunting bullet.
45LC can be fine for hunting deer as it applies for Maryland’s rules. But as several others have said, you’ll need a modern gun designed for the higher pressure 45LC loads. Not one designed around legacy pressures. You’d also need to hand load, or find a commercial load designed around these higher pressures with a bullet designed for hunting (which isn’t generally any harder than finding higher pressure 45LC).
PS for the most part though, I am not arguing MD’s hunting laws are the best. They are designed around the lowest common denominator for sure.
Unfortunately there are far too many hunters in Maryland who neither know where the proper placement is nor have the ability to reliably hit the proper place if they do know.
Well and sometimes hunters screw up too. Deer takes a step, jumps, wind, a branch or leaf you don’t see, fraction of a second of a hang fire, etc. It is on me, but I had a bad hit on a deer at 30yds with a pointy stick opening day this year. Took 4hrs of tracking to finally find her and put her down. Arrow nicked her rumen, hit her liver and just barely kissed a lung. First time I’ve had a bad hit. I’ve got a lot of confidence in what I am using, but stuff happens. I think there are a large number of hunters on this board who have had bad hits. They aren’t bad hunters, but again, occasionally something happens and even a “good shot” doesn’t end up that way. You can minimize the variables, but until everyone is hunting by sneaking up behind the deer and putting the muzzle against the back of their head, eventually something is likely to happen to mess things up.
A 22lr as I mentioned has been used for a long time on deer…but it isn’t remotely what I’d call ethical. An FMJ .223 could get the job done fine with reasonable shot placement, but if the dice get rolled wrong, you end up with a gut shot deer that might die a day or two later a mile away. Yeah, an expanding soft point .308 to the guts might be the same result, but it is a lot more likely on a bad hit to still finish it and have the deer retrievable.
The regs are in part the way they are not just because of bad hunters, but also because even good hunters sometimes screw up or roll bad dice.
dist1646
Ultimate Member
As far as I know, not legal in Maryland. In Tenn., any centerfire is legal, even the .25acp. Fastest I have ever put a deer on the ground is with a standard .45lc w/255gr lead bullet. Went down like someone jerked a rug out from under him. Just imaging how handicapped they were in the 1800's with those .38/40 and .44/40's. It's a wonder anyone survived!
In 35+ years of hunting, I've only had one deer that I've wounded (pretty sure, fatally) that I couldn't recover... and that was with a 12 gauge slug at maybe 30-35 yards. Tore it open, but the thing would not drop. Tracked it for miles... have no idea how it kept going. I still feel bad about that all these years later.
I don’t believe your “single weapon” rule is correct, not to deer firearms season anyway. You can’t carry a 30-30 while squirrel hunting, in the off chance a deer steps out, the bow part you cited correctly as it’s only allowed for self protection. Why couldn’t you carry a regulation compliant handgun while you have a rifle during deer firearms season, so long as it’s a rifle county? I don’t see any regulations in the book prohibiting that. Please state the rule as written in the handbook.
When I hunted in PA as a kid, you had to get a permit from the Fish and Wildlife to carry a pistol during primitive season. I used to carry a Ruger Blackhawk when I hunted with a Kentucky .45 cal flintlock.
(yes, .45 was allowed back then)
(yes, .45 was allowed back then)
Muleskinner
Ultimate Member
I shoot a glock G20 10mm with a 6 inch barrel and with the Buffalo bore heavies I can barely manage a little over 700 ft lb of energy. Like someone above said can it be done in a 45 Long colt? Yes... in your particular firearm? I don't think that I would attempt it.
An excerpt I picked up about Uberti revolvers. It had pictures with calipers but I couldn't copy them.
"As you can see by the larger diameter cylinders, the Uberti's aren't really Colt "clones" as their frames and cylinders are somewhat larger than those of the Colt's.
Another thing to consider is this: Uberti has in the past offered their 1873 SA's with 45 Colt and 45 ACP cylinders, and in fact 45 ACP cylinders are still available separately from new revolvers. The Uberti revolver manual states Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordancewith SAAMI-C.I.P. standards. SAAMI standard pressure for the 45 ACP +P commercial loads is 23,000 psi. So if a Uberti 45 ACP cylinder is OK with 23,000 psi load, why wouldn't their 45 Colt cylinders be OK with like pressure loads?"
Brian Pearce of Handloader Magazine addressed this subject in his column to a readers question in the March/April 2017 issue when he stated:
"....Most (Uberti cylinders)manufactured since the late 1990s have tested at 34 and are constructed of quality 4130 series chrome-moly steel.
The Uberti revolver features a more or less .020-inch larger diameter cylinder ( 1.670 inches) than the Colt SAA ( 1.650 inches); however, the distance from the axis of
the cylinder and the center of the bore is the same. This adds significant steel to the outside of the cylinder, as well as over the bolt notch ( effectively doubling that thickness), which is the SAA pattern revolver's weak link. If your Uberti is of late manufacture, it will handle .45 Colt loads that generate similar pressures as .45 ACP factory loads
that are industry rated at 21,000 psi, or 23,000 psi for +P loads...."
"As you can see by the larger diameter cylinders, the Uberti's aren't really Colt "clones" as their frames and cylinders are somewhat larger than those of the Colt's.
Another thing to consider is this: Uberti has in the past offered their 1873 SA's with 45 Colt and 45 ACP cylinders, and in fact 45 ACP cylinders are still available separately from new revolvers. The Uberti revolver manual states Use ONLY COMMERCIALLY loaded cartridges that have been loaded in accordancewith SAAMI-C.I.P. standards. SAAMI standard pressure for the 45 ACP +P commercial loads is 23,000 psi. So if a Uberti 45 ACP cylinder is OK with 23,000 psi load, why wouldn't their 45 Colt cylinders be OK with like pressure loads?"
Brian Pearce of Handloader Magazine addressed this subject in his column to a readers question in the March/April 2017 issue when he stated:
"....Most (Uberti cylinders)manufactured since the late 1990s have tested at 34 and are constructed of quality 4130 series chrome-moly steel.
The Uberti revolver features a more or less .020-inch larger diameter cylinder ( 1.670 inches) than the Colt SAA ( 1.650 inches); however, the distance from the axis of
the cylinder and the center of the bore is the same. This adds significant steel to the outside of the cylinder, as well as over the bolt notch ( effectively doubling that thickness), which is the SAA pattern revolver's weak link. If your Uberti is of late manufacture, it will handle .45 Colt loads that generate similar pressures as .45 ACP factory loads
that are industry rated at 21,000 psi, or 23,000 psi for +P loads...."
You might be right that two, legal for what you are hunting hunting devices are being carried in the appropriate season. DNR has officially clarified as recently as a year or two ago, in early ML season, you cannot carry a bow and a ML as some were taking an antlerless in that 2nd week, or if a buck wandered by, using the bow.
They have also said in the past you can't carry different hunting devices for different purposes, such as a 22lr for squirrels and a .308 for deer as one of those is not legal for intended game (22lr on deer in case that wasn't clear
)I guess that is true, I am not sure I have ever heard OFFICIALLY, that you cannot carry two of the legal for the pursued game hunting devices at the same time. So maybe you could carry a 22lr and a .410 to hunt squirrels or a 8" .357 and a 12ga with slugs for deer. But I've heard from DNR multiple times the "no two hunting devices", I'd more want to make sure I DID have that opinion from them that so long as the hunting devices were both for the same game you are pursuing are legal in the season, you'd be good to go.
That's probably BGOS on my part. But at least in this case, the 7" Uberti probably can't safely take a 45LC juiced enough to hit 700ft-lbs . That would take a 300gr bullet at 1030fps or a 260gr at 1101fps or 200gr at 1260fps. Yes, there are loads that will do that with a 7" barrel, but all of the data I can find is they are likely pushing over 25k PSI on them. Yeah an Uberti can maybe handle that, but I don't think I'd want to be loading it much past SAAMI spec for 45LC, maybe to to 45acp +p. But seems smarter to get a gun really designed to do this, than a gun I am guessing can maybe handle it.
I don't think you'd be likely to find a commercial load that would almost certainly be safe to do that in an Uberti SAA clone. If you just have to hunt deer with a 45LC in a pistol, I'd either get a contender or get a Ruger Blackhawk. Both of which can very safely take very juiced 45LC loads.
On the lever gun, just about all modern lever guns in 45LC can easily push past the 1200ft-lbs minimum for a rifle, largely because pretty much all modern 45LC lever guns are designed to handle >>>>15,000PSI chamber pressure and can safely handle 25k+ (of course I'd want to research which specific lever gun first before buying, just to be safe).
Archeryrob
Undecided on a great many things
Check this out. So, ... you can hunt with a handgun in Maryland. Only if you use 41 magnum, 44 magnum and some 50 caliber rounds not in this chart. No other round is legal, then why even allow handguns for hunting?
https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
The chart approximates muzzle energy with 4 inch barrel. A 6 inch barrel is the required standard in Maryland.
In a 6 inch and longer barrel, and with an appropriate combination of certain handguns and ammo, there are other cartridges that can meet the Maryland muzzle energy standard as well.
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