C&R buy and ATF

TLL · Dec 12, 2020

I bought a c&r handgun from a large seller like AIM & SOG. In 2011 or 12.
The pistol was gifted to my son in 2013 at a MSP barrick. Today the MSP has put in a trace to the ATF for that pistol. The pistol was traced to me.
I received a call from ATF requesting information for the MSP trace.
So it seems AIM etc must report sales to ATF. I did not give it much thought. You think ATF scans the Dealers books?

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whistlersmother · Dec 12, 2020

Don't know, but the gun was traced to LargeSeller who must keep records as to whom it sold. That was you. So you got the call.

I think it more likely ATF contacted LargeSeller about the gun first.

John from MD · Dec 12, 2020

whistlersmother said:
Don't know, but the gun was traced to LargeSeller who must keep records as to whom it sold. That was you. So you got the call.

I think it more likely ATF contacted LargeSeller about the gun first.

If it was an import, they would have contacted the importer and asked them to provide the trace information. If the gun was sold in a state that has face to face pistol sales, then the trace could end there if there is no requirement to keep records of who you sold it to.

This is why the Demonrats want to get every gun registered. They don't feel safe if the public has guns that the State doesn't know about.

Keep those 80%ers rolling. :lol:

Kman · Dec 12, 2020

I've never thought for one second that multiple government entities didn't trace and know any of that and more.

303_enfield · Dec 12, 2020

So, did your son loose or sell the pistol?

tallen702 · Dec 12, 2020

whistlersmother said:
Don't know, but the gun was traced to LargeSeller who must keep records as to whom it sold. That was you. So you got the call.

I think it more likely ATF contacted LargeSeller about the gun first.

100% this.

The question now is, who did your son sell it to that then used it in a crime?

somd_mustangs · Dec 12, 2020

Depending what it is, the S/N isn't always recorded correctly and it may not even be this gun they are looking for...
e.g. P38 / Luger and either not recording the letter suffix, or not correctly recording the maker/year/slide marking (there can be 20+ P38s with the "same S/N" for instance). And just plain typos or bad handwriting along the way.

TLL · Dec 12, 2020

It was a minor incident that caused the MSP to put on trace.
The thing is , I don't think MSP has him as owner. They should have paperwork from the transfer/gift.
I will be speaking to MSP Monday. If they didn't do proper paperwork then is the pistol still mine? It should be.

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Ranchero50 · Dec 12, 2020

TLL said:
It was a minor incident that caused the MSP to put on trace.
The thing is , I don't think MSP has him as owner. They should have paperwork from the transfer/gift.
I will be speaking to MSP Monday. If they didn't do proper paperwork then is the pistol still mine? It should be.

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From my understanding, if you ever have paperwork done on a pistol or registered rifle, that paperwork never leaves your MSP file.

TLL · Dec 12, 2020

Ranchero50 said:
From my understanding, if you ever have paperwork done on a pistol or registered rifle, that paperwork never leaves your MSP file.

So , my thought is that it was not a completed transfer on their part. We will see what happens.

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drking2 · Dec 12, 2020

MSP has me down for owning 1500 pistols. I was speaking with them last year and the trooper asked if I sold any. Apparently they never remove a pistol you sold from you to someone else. It still shows as yours. Then they have to piece together the actual ownership from the people they show as owners

rseymorejr · Dec 12, 2020

TLL said:
So , my thought is that it was not a completed transfer on their part. We will see what happens.

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I don't think it has anything to do with the transfer to your son. When a police agency wants to trace a gun they start at the source, the manufacturer or importer. Ten they go right on down the line from distributer to dealer to end buyer until they either find the current owner or hit a deadend.

mac1_131 · Dec 12, 2020

303_enfield said:
So, did your son loose or sell the pistol?

Yes, why was it being traced? That's the way traces work, but I doubt it was traced just because you transferred it to him. Something else must have happened?

Mark75H · Dec 12, 2020

77r's are NOT ownership records, they are purchase records. MSP never records you as "unpurchasing" the gun. They also have your son as a purchaser/transferee (unless they lost that one, which is possible).

Darkemp · Dec 12, 2020

Sounds like they’re tracing the gun to who has it now- from the post the assumption is your son sold it, and also assuming he did so correctly he’s just a link in the chain. Was he contacted? If not that could be a result of the 77r not being properly recorded which is the hiccup.

Oswaldo87 · Dec 13, 2020

rseymorejr said:
I don't think it has anything to do with the transfer to your son. When a police agency wants to trace a gun they start at the source, the manufacturer or importer. Ten they go right on down the line from distributer to dealer to end buyer until they either find the current owner or hit a deadend.

This.

TLL · Dec 13, 2020

I suppose they found the distributer on the gun. However, we transfered the gun in 2013 at the MSP barricks. Maryland state should have records that he is the owner.
They botched the records. We have a copy of the 77r but not 4473.
Visiting the MSP today but may have to go back during the week when offices are open. Not sure a desk Sgt can help.
Son did not sell gun and I won't go into details. No criminal charges involved.

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Drmsparks · Dec 13, 2020

somd_mustangs said:
Depending what it is, the S/N isn't always recorded correctly and it may not even be this gun they are looking for...
e.g. P38 / Luger and either not recording the letter suffix, or not correctly recording the maker/year/slide marking (there can be 20+ P38s with the "same S/N" for instance). And just plain typos or bad handwriting along the way.

Ranchero50 said:
From my understanding, if you ever have paperwork done on a pistol or registered rifle, that paperwork never leaves your MSP file.

drking2 said:
MSP has me down for owning 1500 pistols. I was speaking with them last year and the trooper asked if I sold any. Apparently they never remove a pistol you sold from you to someone else. It still shows as yours. Then they have to piece together the actual ownership from the people they show as owners

I've been through this before and it can get even more complicated- apparently my rock island 1911 has the same serial number as a lorcin 380 that baltimore police recovered.

I got the call on the trace from MSP. I explained they should take a better look at their records because I have never owned a lorcin or a 380.

They mumbled something about their records having issues and never called me again.

TLL · Dec 14, 2020

All is well in Whoville. I took MSP 3 weeks to determine son was the legal owner.
Talked to he technician working the issue and he said he was working on the papers to release the cz82 back to my son.

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Darkemp · Dec 14, 2020

TLL said:
All is well in Whoville. I took MSP 3 weeks to determine son was the legal owner.
Talked to he technician working the issue and he said he was working on the papers to release the cz82 back to my son.

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This raises more questions about how it came to be in MSP possession?

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