Mance v Holder: CCRKBA/SAF out-of-state pistol sales, 5th Circuit

Allen65 · Jan 19, 2018

wolfwood said:
loss

read it and weep guys \

You were right KC we should have listened.

At least they applied strict scrutiny

But then they proceeded to use an odd interpretation of strict scrutiny. There are many ways the same problem could have been solved without the in-state requirement, and that's a key criterion for an overturn under true strict scrutiny.

danb · Jan 19, 2018

I saw that the DC FFL charges $125. :whoa:

GlocksAndPatriots · Jan 19, 2018

And Priscilla Owen is supposedly a "conservative" justice.

swamplynx · Jan 19, 2018

danb said:
I saw that the DC FFL charges $125.

Luckily you only need to use Sykes for handgun transactions; but yes, not cheap, despite him being a very friendly gentleman.

I'm always split between thinking Sykes is running a racket monopoly enshrined by the DC Democrat political machine, or whether he is actually providing a public service, and that there are just not enough legal transfers in DC to sustain another (cheaper) FFL. Regardless, the way the Commissars have set up zoning in DC, 300 Indiana is literally the only place an FFL could establish a business, and I'm sure his pricing drives many a grandma with a clean record to become a "felon" by procuring home defense through other means.

Supply vs. Demand, and the supply is 1. DC seems ripe for a Teixeira v. Alamedia zoning lawsuit.

Not_an_outlaw · Jan 20, 2018

Can't this go to the full panel?

wolfwood · Jan 20, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
And Priscilla Owen is supposedly a "conservative" justice.

When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce us under absolute Despotism, it is our right, it is our duty, to throw off such Government"

kcbrown · Jan 20, 2018

wolfwood said:
loss

read it and weep guys \

You were right KC we should have listened.

At least they applied strict scrutiny

I'm not surprised at the outcome. I do find it interesting that they used some form of "strict scrutiny". It differs from what I would have expected. For instance, I was under the impression that "strict scrutiny" included a requirement that the government use the "least restrictive means", but this decision doesn't seem to incorporate that (rather, it incorporates "narrowly drawn to serve that interest", which is a much more subjective, and therefore arbitrary, standard).

What really caught my attention is this:

All concede that there is a compelling government interest in preventing circumvention of the handgun laws of various states.

The consequences of that seem very far-reaching to me, amounting to a claim that the federal government is compelled to enforce state law. It seems to me that such a claim has enormous implications for liberty and for the role of the federal government, essentially making the federal government the lapdog of the states and of any arbitrary and capricious laws they may pass.

press1280 · Jan 21, 2018

Not_an_outlaw said:
Can't this go to the full panel?

Certainly worth a try, but you'd think with this panel ruling against you that's it's a longshot they'll even hear it.

Whether it's worth anything for reference here's the NRA v. BATFE en banc vote: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions\pub\11/11-10959-CV1.wpd.pdf
Prado and Haynes both voted against en banc (so against us), but Owen voted for our side.
There are 5 judges still on the court who voted to re-hear NRA (apart from Owen, who I'll safely assume will not vote to re-hear and disturb her own opinion). 15 active duty judges currently sit on the court, so 8 are needed for rehearing.

jbrown50 · Jan 21, 2018

danb said:
I saw that the DC FFL charges $125.

Yep.

The panel's concern that

the federal background check database may not include all information available to a state

wouldn't apply to DC because DC requires that all guns bought into the city be registered anyway. There'd be no chance of someone slipping through the cracks in DC because there'd be a background check done anyway. No out of state FFL would release a gun to a DC resident until they first got proof of registration.

Where the change in the law would help DC residents is that they'd no longer have to pay the cost of two FFL transfers, eliminating the exorbitant $125 cost from Mr. Sykes.

wolfwood · Jul 20, 2018

En banc denied just now

krucam · Jul 21, 2018

Yup but the vote was close, 8-7 against rehearing en banc.

The dissent is very good and may help if/when appealed to the new SCOTUS.

https://www.scribd.com/document/384328522/Mance-v-Holder

GlocksAndPatriots · Jul 21, 2018

krucam said:
Yup but the vote was close, 8-7 against rehearing en banc.

The dissent is very good and may help if/when appealed to the new SCOTUS.

https://www.scribd.com/document/384328522/Mance-v-Holder

The problem is not this individual analysis, but the two-step "intermediate" scrutiny, which is really just rational basis. We need the Supreme Court to declare that laws that infringe upon the 2nd Amendment are subject to strict scrutiny. All of them. At that point, the ridiculous rationales the lower courts come up with will be irrelevant.

press1280 · Jul 23, 2018

krucam said:
Yup but the vote was close, 8-7 against rehearing en banc.

The dissent is very good and may help if/when appealed to the new SCOTUS.

https://www.scribd.com/document/384328522/Mance-v-Holder

Wow, 3 separate dissents!

And the Trump nominees were especially strong. It's too bad this opinion came when it did, another Trump nominee will start on the 5th Circuit very soon.
The Bush 43 nominees were weak. Only 1 out of 4 voted for re hearing :sad20:

krucam · Oct 24, 2018

Supreme Court Docket: https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/18a179.html

As mentioned in another thread, the Petition for Cert is now due November 19th, 2018.

motorcoachdoug · Oct 24, 2018

IMHO I think it will get thru the hoops it must jump and end up before the court. It will also see how it does play out now that their are 9 on the bench instead of 8. The big question is will RBG still be around ?? and of if not just how bad will the DemoRATS fight to keep Trumps pick off SCOTUS? Would love to hear from our legal eagle's about this case and what they think the chances are for it to end up before SCOTUS?

krucam · Nov 21, 2018

Alan Gura just posted the Petition for Cert on Twitter. :rockon:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-663/72489/20181119123335039_3-petition.pdf

Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/alangura/status/1065339100910284801

PJDiesel · Nov 21, 2018

The first twitter response is spot on....

krucam · Nov 21, 2018

PJDiesel said:
The first twitter response is spot on....

Never follow that krucam guy...

PJDiesel · Nov 21, 2018

Ha, didn't notice the handle.

Suffice to say I don't "twot".

danb · Dec 21, 2018

Amicus brief by Kopel and law professors.

Summary here: http://reason.com/volokh/2018/12/20/supreme-court-should-clarify-second-amen

full brief here:

http://davekopel.org/Briefs/SCt/Mance full brief.pdf

Amicus brief: The amicus brief was written by Colorado attorney Joseph Greenlee and me. Amici are ten law professors who teach and write on the Second Amendment. Most of them have been cited by the Supreme Court, and they are oft-cited by lower courts as well. The professors are: VC's Randy Barnett (Georgetown), Royce Barondes (Missouri), Robert Cottrol (George Washington), Nicholas Johnson (Fordham), Nelson Lund (George Mason), Joyce Malcolm (George Mason), George Mocsary (Southern Illinois), Joseph Olson (Mitchell Hamline), Glenn Reynolds (Tennessee), and Gregory Wallace (Campbell). Organizational amici are the Independence Institute, where I work, and the Millennial Policy Center, a think tank where Greenlee is a Fellow.

Mance v Holder: CCRKBA/SAF out-of-state pistol sales, 5th Circuit

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