WOW! smokeless powder, muzzloading, cap and ball revolver!!

novus collectus · Oct 5, 2007

The legend is real! There really is someone who converts BP cap and ball revolvers to fire smokeless powder. :eek:

Fricken awesome!! :party29:

http://westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

I thought it was a myth until today.

This could open up whole new possibilities....hunting, home defense, cleaner target shooting, indoor ranges, under 21 smokeless powder handgun ownership, etc.

Hunting: in a larger caliber than what this company offers, one could shoot more powerful loads during muzzloader season than BP revolvers.

Home defense: No more concern about the powder getting damp and long term storage loaded.

Cleaner: Can fire more rounds without fouling, cleaning, and less need to clean to prevent corrosion.

Indoor ranges: Places won't let you shoot BP or Pyrodex, but now one can shoot a muzzloader.

Under 21: People under under 21 can own and possess muzzloading handguns (have to be 21 to buy powder I think though). This allows another way to get new people into shooting sports at the younger age.

Transport: As I understand it, one can stop at the store, gas station or get a cup of coffee when coming back from the range because it is still technically an "antique" and "antiques" are not handguns in the "handguns" transporting section of state statute. (still restricted in Montgomerry co though). Hell, as long as it is unloaded it can possibly stay in the trunk full time as I understand it (except in Mo Co and Baltimore and any where else local laws may apply).

novus collectus · Oct 5, 2007

The conversion consists of a new Two part Stainless Steel cylinder. The front part has a forward chamber for the bullet with a reduced diameter for the Nitro powder charge. A small flash hole is drilled into the rear primer pocket, which takes a Shotgun Primer. Current production cylinders have longditudinal lightening flutes as shown on the Ruger below.

.....

JCB003 · Oct 5, 2007

I know Midway sells conversion cylinders for BP revolvers that allow you to fire centerfire ammo in a BP revolver. Most are chambered for cowboy ammo like 45 long colt. The thing is the replacment drop in cylinders cost more than the gun.

novus collectus · Oct 6, 2007

JCB003 said:
I know Midway sells conversion cylinders for BP revolvers that allow you to fire centerfire ammo in a BP revolver. Most are chambered for cowboy ammo like 45 long colt. The thing is the replacment drop in cylinders cost more than the gun.

I actually have one of the R&D conversion cylinders and when I bought it it was nearly twice as much as I paid for the gun itself. Lately though the price of the steel frame guns has almost caught up with the cost of the cylinders.

No, this is something entirely different. The cartridge conversion cylinder and the smokeless powder cap and ball cylinder look very similar, but they are not the same. One fires cartridges, and the other is still a non-fixed ammo revolver.
One makes a revolver a modern handgun (while in the frame), and the other is an "antique" even when in the frame.

Imagine loading your muzzleoading revolver with smokeless powder and no brass cartridges. Under any other circumstance that would lead to lost fingers, but with this device it means less cleaning.

novus collectus · Oct 7, 2007

I am shocked almost no one seems interested in a muzzloading revolver firing smokeless powder instead of black powder.
Me, I was amazed at this and I would love to have one, but maybe that is just me.

slayr15 · Oct 7, 2007

as a hunter i like the limits black powder puts on me i like the challenge of hunting like my forfathers. savage make a black powder rifle that uses smokless also there neet but just not my thing.

novus collectus · Oct 7, 2007

slayr15 said:
as a hunter i like the limits black powder puts on me i like the challenge of hunting like my forfathers. savage make a black powder rifle that uses smokless also there neet but just not my thing.

I used to target shoot with mine, but I am too lazy to clean it right after every time I went shooting. I also hated the fact that I could only get off about 18 shots before it was too fowled up to use properly. With smokeless I could go on for hours and I could also possibly shoot indoors too.

JCB003 · Oct 8, 2007

I see now, looks interesting - one reason I stopped shooting my BP revolver was it was a mess to clean - actually I'm lazy. It is fun to shoot. I used to take it out when I went deer hunting during BP season with my Remington 700ML and fire off a few cylinders at the end of the day. The prices are in pounds so I think that puts this thing over $600.

novus collectus · Oct 8, 2007

JCB003 said:
I see now, looks interesting - one reason I stopped shooting my BP revolver was it was a mess to clean - actually I'm lazy. It is fun to shoot. I used to take it out when I went deer hunting during BP season with my Remington 700ML and fire off a few cylinders at the end of the day. The prices are in pounds so I think that puts this thing over $600.

Worse than that. I emailed the guy and he responded saying that because it is a regulated (controlled) item in the UK it would have to go through an export process and because it has to be fit to each revolver (tighter cylinder gap), one would have to ship the gun to the UK which requires import "licenses" because it is a "controlled" item.

He also said that "carriage" charges would be a little costly too. (heh heh, he said "carriage"....those funny Brits

) He said it is possible though, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being well over a grand in the end.

I am going to ask him if he ever thought about licensing the product for manufacture in the US.

novus collectus · Jun 7, 2008

I just found out something interesting, the NAA .22 percussion revolver called the Companion can supposedly fire smokeless powder.
I want one!

novus collectus · Jun 8, 2008

A replacement cylinder that enables the use of modem smokeless gunpowder in a black powder muzzle-loading revolver is provided. The cylinder includes a main cylinder body and a removable cylinder cap. The main cylinder body includes a number of chambers, each of which having a projectile portion, a propellant portion and a primer portion. The cylinder cap includes a number of captured firing pins positioned therein. During operation, the cylinder cap is allowed to axially translate relative to the main cylinder body. A method of muzzle-loading the cylinder of the invention using modern smokeless gunpowder and a primer is also provided and is facilitated by the provision of a loading plate.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2005016050&F=0

In a preferred embodiment, the cylinder cap is allowed to axially translate during firing of a chamber a small amount to prevent excessive pressure buildup within the cylinder. This axial translation is limited when the cylinder cap meets the percussion plate of the firearm. In one embodiment, this lateral translation ranges between .002-.003, and may be up to .006 of an inch depending on the revolver....

....In an embodiment of the present invention wherein the projectile portion 26 of chamber 24 is sized to hold a .45 caliber Colt slug of between 180 to 255 grains, and preferably 200 grains, the propellant portion 28 of chamber 24 is sized to hold approximately 4½ grains of tight group powder, although it may sized to hold between 3 to 3½ grains, or as much as 5 grains of unique powder

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6931774/description.html

(there seems to be an error in the UK patent office link. Maybe it will work later?)

JSW · Jun 8, 2008

novus collectus said:
I used to target shoot with mine, but I am too lazy to clean it right after every time I went shooting. I also hated the fact that I could only get off about 18 shots before it was too fowled up to use properly. With smokeless I could go on for hours and I could also possibly shoot indoors too.

novus i shoot 50 plus rds thru my 58 remington before any serious cleaning.I've been learning from the old guys all the little tricks it helps the matches run better for the shooter. want some of the tricks pm me.

novus collectus · Jun 8, 2008

JSW said:
novus i shoot 50 plus rds thru my 58 remington before any serious cleaning.I've been learning from the old guys all the little tricks it helps the matches run better for the shooter. want some of the tricks pm me.

I learned a few tricks I have yet to try, like using lamb fat for instance. I never shot in competitions or matches, I just burned some charcoal for fun and claimed it was target practice.

E.Shell · Jun 9, 2008

novus collectus said:
The legend is real! There really is someone who converts BP cap and ball revolvers to fire smokeless powder.

Fricken awesome!!
http://westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

I thought it was a myth until today.

That's pretty cool, and I've also seen the conversion cylinders for sale in several places over the last few years.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253738
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?tabid=5&categoryid=10623&categorystring=10635***

The only thing that stopped me from buying one is that I didn't have a cap & ball revolver to convert.

This could open up whole new possibilities....hunting, home defense, cleaner target shooting, indoor ranges, under 21 smokeless powder handgun ownership, etc.

Hunting: in a larger caliber than what this company offers, one could shoot more powerful loads during muzzloader season than BP revolvers.

Home defense: No more concern about the powder getting damp and long term storage loaded.

Cleaner: Can fire more rounds without fouling, cleaning, and less need to clean to prevent corrosion.

Indoor ranges: Places won't let you shoot BP or Pyrodex, but now one can shoot a muzzloader.

Under 21: People under under 21 can own and possess muzzloading handguns (have to be 21 to buy powder I think though). This allows another way to get new people into shooting sports at the younger age.

Transport: As I understand it, one can stop at the store, gas station or get a cup of coffee when coming back from the range because it is still technically an "antique" and "antiques" are not handguns in the "handguns" transporting section of state statute. (still restricted in Montgomerry co though). Hell, as long as it is unloaded it can possibly stay in the trunk full time as I understand it (except in Mo Co and Baltimore and any where else local laws may apply).

IANAL, but I would recommend EXTREME CAUTION here. Here is my take on it and my opinions of how this is impacted by the law:

1) It is a method to manufacture your own modern revolver, which IS perfectly legal to do if you have no other legal impediments and can legally own a regulated firearm.

2) Once converted to fire modern ammunition, no matter how relatively inconvenient to load & reload, it is NOW a modern revolver firing fixed modern ammunition.

3) Since these replica C&B revolvers are of modern manufacture, and the moment of conversion is the "date of manufacture" of a modern handgun, these converted revolvers are quite clearly NOT "antiques". Since they no longer load down the barrel or through the front of the cylinder, they are quite clearly not "muzzleloaders" either. It fires modern ammunition, therefore, it IS a "modern regulated firearm". Because it is now a modern revolver, it is subject to all rules that apply.

These rules would include:

A) Hunting. This revolver firing fixed, modern ammunition no longer fits the description of a "muzzleloader":

To be considered a muzzleloader, a rifle, shotgun or handgun must be loaded from the muzzle, and a revolver must be loaded from the front of the cylinder.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/huntersguide/weapon.asp

B) Possession of a regulated firearm, which means that those under age (18 to posess, 21 to buy) or those with any legal impediment (criminal record) cannot legally possess a revolver that contains the conversion parts.

C) Transportation will be regulated by laws intended to apply to modern handguns, meaning no stops, no carrying unless to/from authorized places, etc..

This is a nifty conversion, but I sure wouldn't want to see anyone taking unintentional risks with the law by making invalid assumptions.

Spot77 · Jun 9, 2008

novus collectus said:
I am shocked almost no one seems interested in a muzzloading revolver firing smokeless powder instead of black powder.
Me, I was amazed at this and I would love to have one, but maybe that is just me.

Well...you are YOU. :rasp:

HoChiWaWa · Jun 9, 2008

wouldn't this be a lot more dangerous than BP?

BP has a constant burn rate, if overloaded it just burns outside the barrel, smokeless burn rates are less predictable and easily made to spike dangerously.

novus collectus · Jun 9, 2008

E.Shell said:
That's pretty cool, and I've also seen the conversion cylinders for sale in several places over the last few years.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253738
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?tabid=5&categoryid=10623&categorystring=10635***

The only thing that stopped me from buying one is that I didn't have a cap & ball revolver to convert.

Oh I already have a cartridge conversion cylinder. Had one for years now and they are fun.

Notice the last post and the date in this thread

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161521

1) It is a method to manufacture your own modern revolver, which IS perfectly legal to do if you have no other legal impediments and can legally own a regulated firearm.

2) Once converted to fire modern ammunition, no matter how relatively inconvenient to load & reload, it is NOW a modern revolver firing fixed modern ammunition.

3) Since these replica C&B revolvers are of modern manufacture, and the moment of conversion is the "date of manufacture" of a modern handgun, these converted revolvers are quite clearly NOT "antiques". Since they no longer load down the barrel or through the front of the cylinder, they are quite clearly not "muzzleloaders" either. It fires modern ammunition, therefore, it IS a "modern regulated firearm". Because it is now a modern revolver, it is subject to all rules that apply.

These rules would include:

A) Hunting. This revolver firing fixed, modern ammunition no longer fits the description of a "muzzleloader":

If it is a smokeless powder muzzle loading cap and ball revolver, then it is still an "antique" and unregulated.
The cartridge conversion cylinder would make it a MD Regulated firearm and people under 21 cannot generally posses it, but that post was not about the cartridge conversions.
This thread was about a converted muzzloader revolver that uses smokeless powder and is still a muzzloader.

B) Possession of a regulated firearm, which means that those under age (18 to posess, 21 to buy) or those with any legal impediment (criminal record) cannot legally possess a revolver that contains the conversion parts.

As I understand it, by federal law those under 18 can still possess modern handguns if they have written permission from the parent. (MD has further restrictions)

In Vermont for instance someone as young as 16 can carry a handgun concealed by state law, but in order to comply with the federal law they need to have on them written parental permission.

This is a nifty conversion, but I sure wouldn't want to see anyone taking unintentional risks with the law by making invalid assumptions.

As I said above, you are confusing this smokelss powder revolver with the cartridge conversion revolver. If you go back and read the assumptions in that context, it will look entirely different to you and they may seem totally valid

novus collectus · Jun 9, 2008

HoChiWaWa said:
wouldn't this be a lot more dangerous than BP?

BP has a constant burn rate, if overloaded it just burns outside the barrel, smokeless burn rates are less predictable and easily made to spike dangerously.

The inventor claims the chamber is designed to only allow about five or six grains of Unique powder at most, so I assume the specifications of the metal used in teh cylinder and barrel can take it. Also the design supposedly allows a relief out the back past the primer which is deflected sideways by the back plate. It does this by allowing the primer to move back a few thousands of an inch if pressure is too high (according to the patent).

Think about the muzzloading Savage 10ML II rifle that takes smokeless powder. YOu can supposedly double charge it and it will still not blow up they are built so strong. http://ridgerunner20.tripod.com/thesavagearchivepages/id19.html

E.Shell · Jun 9, 2008

novus collectus said:
. . . . As I said above, you are confusing this smokelss powder revolver with the cartridge conversion revolver. If you go back and read the assumptions in that context, it will look entirely different to you and they may seem totally valid

Yes sir, you're right, I had mistaken the conversion styles. I stand corrected.

novus collectus · Jul 15, 2009

Now with interchangeable barrels/cylinders and can fire multiple calibers using the same frame. :party29:

WOW! smokeless powder, muzzloading, cap and ball revolver!!

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