Moving to MD Need Advise

FridayGt · Oct 10, 2015

swinokur said:
Piston AR's are not copies soI think MSP says they are ok. But I'd double check that.

Here is the AG opinion on what constitutes a copy.

Since you could swap barrels of a 300 BLK and a 5.56 receiver, that may be construed as interchangeable parts. I'd build an HBAR to be safe.

Yes, the laws are written to infringe on your rights and to be as vague as possible so the state can decide who to prosecute and who not to. Welcome to Marylandistan.
.

Thank you for the response again, though this is certainly frustrating. I had intended to build a 300 Blackout to avoid concerns with a Heavy contour barrel, as they chose not to clearly define that either and why not go with a little more oomph!

At this point it seems that the only benefit associated with that swap would be ballistics if I'd have to get a HBAR anyway.

swinokur · Oct 10, 2015

I think MSP said if the barrel is stamped HBAR or offered for sale and advertised as HBAR it would be legal.

Failing either of those, I'd likely not buy a barrel not stamped or advertised as HBAR.

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 10, 2015

Does anyone know what happens if I don't register my scary firearms? Is the registration a criminal or civil law? I called the MSP and was transferred some guy in charge of registrations. He told me MD registration is voluntary, but as a new resident I'd have the 90 days.

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swinokur · Oct 10, 2015

I see no mention of a penalty. But if the law requires it, why wouldn't you?

§5–143.
(a) (1) A person who moves into the State with the intent of becoming a resident shall register all regulated firearms with the Secretary within 90 days after establishing residency.
(2) The Secretary shall prepare and, on request of an applicant, provide an application form for registration under this section.
(b) An application for registration under this section shall contain:
(1) the make, model, manufacturer’s serial number, caliber, type, barrel length, finish, and country of origin of each regulated firearm; and
(2) the firearm applicant’s name, address, Social Security number, place and date of birth, height, weight, race, eye and hair color, signature, driver’s or photographic identification Soundex number, and occupation.
(c) An application for registration filed with the Secretary of State Police shall be accompanied by a nonrefundable total registration fee of $15, regardless of the number of firearms registered.
(d) Registration data provided under this section is not open to public inspection.

If moving into the state registration is mandatory. MSP is handing out bad information. Again.

ETA-IMO a cop would be well within the law to confiscate an unregistered firearm. Getting it back would be a huge hassle. Isn't that enough of a reason to follow the law?

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 11, 2015

That's the law I'm referring to, but where does it indicate anything will be done if someone fails to register their firearms?

It is my understanding that the registration law is a civil statute. That means there are no criminal repercussions for not following it. It is a law without teeth. This was explained to me by a Maryland attorney. Needless to say, if MSP is saying the registration is voluntary and a Maryland attorney is telling me that MD's requirement for registration is a civil, not criminal statute (law) then one corroborates the other, and new residents won't face any charges for not registering their firearms.

Enough people on this thread believe that one will lose their firearms to the MSP unless they register them, but can anyone provide me with the statute stating what the repercussions are for a new resident who refuses to voluntarily register their firearms?

Anecdotes by the MSP or looney politicians are not what I'm looking for. Of course the gun-hating politicians and police are going to say, "It's the law.", but so what? So what if it is the law? If the state of MD is stupid enough to pass a law without the ability to bring criminal charges against someone who doesn't follow it, then I'm not going to volunteer.

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swinokur · Oct 11, 2015

Of course you can do whatever you want.The forum rules don't condone illegal activity and not following the law even without a penalty specified would fit into that category

If you moved to MD before 10-1-13 with a firearm you purchased outside MD, then registration is voluntary. It clearly is not now based on the statute, penalty or no penalty.

IMO the juice isn't worth the squeeze but it's obviously up to you.

Good luck

ballen0351 · Oct 11, 2015

LiveFreeorDye said:
That's the law I'm referring to, but where does it indicate anything will be done if someone fails to register their firearms?

It is my understanding that the registration law is a civil statute. That means there are no criminal repercussions for not following it. It is a law without teeth. This was explained to me by a Maryland attorney. Needless to say, if MSP is saying the registration is voluntary and a Maryland attorney is telling me that MD's requirement for registration is a civil, not criminal statute (law) then one corroborates the other, and new residents won't face any charges for not registering their firearms.

Enough people on this thread believe that one will lose their firearms to the MSP unless they register them, but can anyone provide me with the statute stating what the repercussions are for a new resident who refuses to voluntarily register their firearms?

Anecdotes by the MSP or looney politicians are not what I'm looking for. Of course the gun-hating politicians and police are going to say, "It's the law.", but so what? So what if it is the law? If the state of MD is stupid enough to pass a law without the ability to bring criminal charges against someone who doesn't follow it, then I'm not going to volunteer.

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If I'm reading it correctly title 5-144 lists the punishments for the violation.
Knowingly possessing a regulated firearm in violation of the subtitle is a misdemeanor and is subject to imprisonment not to exceed 5 years and fines not to exceed 10000 dollars, each violation is charged as a separate crime.

swinokur · Oct 11, 2015

The only issue with that is it is legal to possess the firearm. The issue is the registration of the firearm.

I'm not a lawyer. seems easier to just register the thing.

ShafTed · Oct 11, 2015

ballen0351 said:
If I'm reading it correctly title 5-144 lists the punishments for the violation.
Knowingly possessing a regulated firearm in violation of the subtitle is a misdemeanor and is subject to imprisonment not to exceed 5 years and fines not to exceed 10000 dollars, each violation is charged as a separate crime.

That's right. And even though it's specified as a misdemeanor, with a maximum sentence of 5 years (regardless of what actual sentence might be given) is a lifetime disqualifier. Don't you just love the Peoples Republic?

swinokur · Oct 11, 2015

The violation is not illegal possession, it's the gun not being registered.

But why take a chance? that's the point IMO.

That is true-- a disqualifier in MD is being found guilty of a misdemeanor that COULD BE punishable by up to two years in prison. Not necessarily the sentence handed down.

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 12, 2015

5-144 is not the subtitle referring to registering firearms, so its penalty doesn't quite apply here.

Where does it say failure to register your firearms is a misdemeanor? This information eludes me.

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swinokur · Oct 12, 2015

yep. different subtitle. there is no published penalty for not registering.

but form rules don't allow advocating breaking of laws. penalty or not registration is the law.

your decision of course.

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 12, 2015

In Haynes vs United States the SCOTUS found it unconstitutional to require felons (which I am not) to register their firearms. MD's law is unconstitutional, unenforceable, and violates the 5th Amendment.

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swinokur · Oct 12, 2015

still on the books though.

apples and ornages IMO. And not exactly the same as plain registration for non felons. 5th amendment case, not a violation of the 2A.

IANAL

As with many other 5th amendment cases, felons and others prohibited from possessing firearms could not be compelled to incriminate themselves through registration.[1][2] The National Firearm Act was amended after Haynes to make it apply only to those who could lawfully possess a firearm. This eliminated prosecution of prohibited persons, such as criminals, and cured the self-incrimination problem. In this new form, the new registration provision was upheld. The court held: " To eliminate the defects revealed by Haynes, Congress amended the Act so that only a possessor who lawfully makes, manufactures, or imports firearms can and must register them", United States v. Freed, 401 U.S. 601 (1971).[3] The original Haynes decision continues to block state prosecutions of criminals who fail to register guns as required by various state law gun registration schemes.

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 12, 2015

I agree that it's not exactly the same thing, but I am a private citizen, not a manufacturer, importer or etc.

When people pose the question, "Why not just register them?" I don't understand why this is asked. Can MD fine me for not registering a firearm? Can they confiscate them? Can they jail me? To anyone who decides not to register their firearms, those are the risks they must be aware of. On the other side of the coin is there exists the risk of the state passing a law to revoke their rights.

The whole purpose of registration is to disarm those the MD government deems unworthy to own firearms. They might claim that registration is there to help the law-abiding citizen to get them back after they were stolen, but it doesn't seem like that's something MSP makes a priority.

There's no telling what laws will be passed in the future and if MD will decide to pass a law to confiscate some or all registered firearms, and whether or not I choose to register firearms in MD, leave them out of state, sell them, or make some other choice still remains up in the air. I will however, make an informed decision, and this is what all of this line of questioning is about.

swinokur · Oct 12, 2015

as has been noted, you are free to choose what to do. it was simply pointed out it's the law.

no one is arguing about it.

LiveFreeorDye · Oct 12, 2015

I agree. No one is arguing about it.

Pinecone · Oct 14, 2015

LiveFreeorDye said:
In Haynes vs United States the SCOTUS found it unconstitutional to require felons (which I am not) to register their firearms. MD's law is unconstitutional, unenforceable, and violates the 5th Amendment.

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Since you are not a felon, that decision does not apply to you.

So if you want to legally not register your firearms, just commit a felony and get caught. Then you can claim immunity from registration.

swinokur · Oct 14, 2015

and it was a 5th amendment case about registration causing said felon to incriminate himself.

apples and oranges.

Pinecone · Oct 14, 2015

swinokur said:
The only issue with that is it is legal to possess the firearm. The issue is the registration of the firearm.

I'm not a lawyer. seems easier to just register the thing.

The question would be, it is legal to possess an unregistered regulated firearm that was brought into the state after 10/1/2013.

And I am all for the poster to test this law in court (at his expense) to once and for all answer the question for the rest of us. I think he is being very civic minded to put his freedom, gun ownership, and a LOT of money on the line to do this for us.

I applaud him.

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