Distinguishing what is an HBAR

Jim12 · Oct 15, 2017

Pinecone said:
The LAW says, HBAR are legal.

MSP has put out guidance that HBAR marked or advertised is an HBAR.

So far there has been no test of the MSP guidance. Of course, it will not be fun (or cheap) to be the test case.

If somebody wants to test it, they might ask their lawyer -- in advance -- whether it makes sense to include this as one argument:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/vagueness_doctrine

Vagueness doctrine
Definition

1) A constitutional rule that requires criminal laws to state explicitly and definitely what conduct is punishable. Criminal laws that violate this requirement are said to be void for vagueness. Vagueness doctrine rests on the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. By requiring fair notice of what is punishable and what is not, vagueness doctrine also helps prevent arbitrary enforcement of the laws.

2) Under vagueness doctrine, a statute is also void for vagueness if a legislature's delegation of authority to judges and/or administrators is so extensive that it would lead to arbitrary prosecutions.
Illustrative caselaw

See, e.g. Skilling v. United States, 130 S.Ct. 2896 (2010).
See also

Vague

Criminal procedure

Civil procedure

wex:
wex definitions
constitutional law
courts and procedure

###

More general background at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagueness_doctrine

Not_an_outlaw · Oct 15, 2017

I don't think vagueness worked in Kolbe...at the present time.

dreadpirate · Oct 15, 2017

Rack&Roll said:
He means KBAR I think.

Now that’s a knife.

You guys are mean. :lol2:

Ranchero50 · Oct 16, 2017

DutchV said:
Letter stamp sets are cheap at Harbor Freight.

I'd venture most barrels are tougher then their stamps. I have a set and they're clear as mud on soft stuff.

outrider58 · Oct 16, 2017

Ranchero50 said:
I'd venture most barrels are tougher then their stamps. I have a set and they're clear as mud on soft stuff.

^^^This. Don't waste your money for this.

Jim12 · Oct 16, 2017

Not_an_outlaw said:
I don't think vagueness worked in Kolbe...at the present time.

Was that issue litigated? I don't recall it.

Warwolvesinspace · Oct 16, 2017

Dumbest and most vague law ever. "Heavy barrels are less lethal." ROFL no. Just another law written by someone that doesn't have any experience in firearms.

John from MD · Oct 16, 2017

lazarus · Oct 16, 2017

Rob R. said:
Indeed, another small victory for them.. Can't round them up and ban them completely (yet) so let's just make it extremely vague and eliminate 99% of the available models on the market.

I remember going to cabelas to buy 1 of 2 heavy barrel options they had as I had several gift cards to use..
Drove all the way over to Delaware since no one answered their phones at all and website said limited store stock.. However they only had the model with the 30rd capacity mag included so they refused to sell it to me per SOP even though I requested they keep the mag.. It was comical that they are completely ok with me walking over to the magpul bin and buying their entire stock of 30 rounders but refuse to sell me this one "md approved" rifle with one 30 rd mag included.
I was not in a good mood that day to say the least, cabelas corporate could not care less, another win for the FSA2013

You are giving them WAY too much credit. They passed the old federal assault weapons ban and the HBAR exception is because some Marylanders lobbied them hard to give an exemption for the Colt HBAR because it is used in shooting competitions (that was the reason anyway). Any copies are legit, therefore a copy of a Colt HBAR is Maryland legal.

What distinguish a Colt HBAR from a regular AR-15? It has a barrel marked HBAR and it is a heavy barrel. So to be a copy of the Colt HBAR, your AR-15 must have it's barrel marked HBAR or be advertised as having a heavy barrel (to distinguish it from all of the other AR-15s out there, which are the devils smoke pole).

Yeah, it leads to confusion and is stupid. I'll take a loop hole where I can get it rather than them having been smart about it. Trust me, if they had been smart, NO AR-15 or copy of any kind would be legal. No AR-9s, no AR-10s, etc. That was their intention, they just weren't educated/smart enough to manage that.

I am sure they'll try to rectify that oversight as soon as they can screw us gun owners in the ear.

eruby · Oct 17, 2017

If the rifle has a double chin, it is an HBAR.

parttimer · Oct 17, 2017

Does it make any difference in how the barrel is marked? Does it have to be stamped or will having it makes by a laser ingraver be acceptable?
I am looking at having a barrel that is advertised as a h-bar but is not marked as h-bar marked so that I don't have to keep a copy of the advertisement in my range bag for the off chance someone ever questioned it

ras_oscar · Oct 17, 2017

parttimer said:
Does it make any difference in how the barrel is marked? Does it have to be stamped or will having it makes by a laser ingraver be acceptable?
I am looking at having a barrel that is advertised as a h-bar but is not marked as h-bar marked so that I don't have to keep a copy of the advertisement in my range bag for the off chance someone ever questioned it

perhaps you could laser etch a QR code to the product web page that says h-bar.

John from MD · Oct 17, 2017

My barrels from Spinta Precision are written in script. Probably done with a Dremel tool and a carbide bit.

When I used to build hunting rifles for folks, I used to stamp the caliber (if changed) my initials and date it was built. Harbor Fright stamps are too soft to stamp barrel steel. My stamps were bought from Brownells back in the day and were very hard. I don't know if they still sell them.

danb · Oct 17, 2017

parttimer said:
Does it make any difference in how the barrel is marked? Does it have to be stamped or will having it makes by a laser ingraver be acceptable?
I am looking at having a barrel that is advertised as a h-bar but is not marked as h-bar marked so that I don't have to keep a copy of the advertisement in my range bag for the off chance someone ever questioned it

Just keep a copy of the invoice in your files and email. If they pull you over and question your rifles, that piece of paper in your bag wont do you a bit of good. Arguing the law or evidence with the police rarely works. Best case scenario, they have already decided to bust you, its a question of what for. By the time they are going through your rifles in detail, you are way past the point where a piece of paper does you any good. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on them to prove guilt, not you to prove innocence.

swinokur · Oct 17, 2017

take a picture and keep it in your phone or put a copy on a cloud drive

JohnnyE · Oct 17, 2017

ras_oscar said:
perhaps you could laser etch a QR code to the product web page that says h-bar.

Web pages come and go. QR codes and hyperlinks do not stand the test of time. Printing and filing hard copies is better insurance.

daggo66 · Oct 17, 2017

parttimer said:
Does it make any difference in how the barrel is marked? Does it have to be stamped or will having it makes by a laser ingraver be acceptable?
I am looking at having a barrel that is advertised as a h-bar but is not marked as h-bar marked so that I don't have to keep a copy of the advertisement in my range bag for the off chance someone ever questioned it

It does not have to be marked in any way.

parttimer · Oct 17, 2017

I am thinking long term. Eventually we they get old enough I would like to give them some of my firearms possibly. I am sur those websites will not be around or these barrels will not be for sale any longer. It is easy enough to put a print out in the file cabinet but sometimes old files get cleaned out and stuff gets lost. If the barrel is marked that work should never get lost.
I was just wondering if there was an acceptable standard for the marking. Stamping vs laser engraved.

daggo66 · Oct 17, 2017

danb said:
Just keep a copy of the invoice in your files and email. If they pull you over and question your rifles, that piece of paper in your bag wont do you a bit of good. Arguing the law or evidence with the police rarely works. Best case scenario, they have already decided to bust you, its a question of what for. By the time they are going through your rifles in detail, you are way past the point where a piece of paper does you any good. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on them to prove guilt, not you to prove innocence.

You give them way too much credit. No one will be pulling you over and inspecting your rifles. If you are found guilty and are now prohibited you will eventually be able to turn your firearms over to an FFL who can then transfer your firearms to a family member or your designee. Any that are determined to be "banned" will have to go to a non-MD resident or out of state. I know this information first hand (I wasn't the prohibited person). I was the recipient of the MD legal firearms and handled the out of state disposition of the formerly grandfathered "assault weapons".

outrider58 · Oct 17, 2017

parttimer said:
I am thinking long term. Eventually we they get old enough I would like to give them some of my firearms possibly. I am sur those websites will not be around or these barrels will not be for sale any longer. It is easy enough to put a print out in the file cabinet but sometimes old files get cleaned out and stuff gets lost. If the barrel is marked that work should never get lost.
I was just wondering if there was an acceptable standard for the marking. Stamping vs laser engraved.

Go laser. Stamping is very difficult give the hardness of gun barrels.

Distinguishing what is an HBAR

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