Defensive Uses of Firearms Thread

I thought we had one, but I can't find it. GOA claims 2.5M defensive gun uses per year, on average. I'm skeptical of that number, but there's no doubting defensive gun use events occur frequently. This thread is intended to serve as a repository for these events.

I came across this article and thought it would be a good way to kick things off.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/12/p...luding-capturing-ms-13-member-fleeing-police/

This subreddit tracks Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) daily. Something to bookmark!
https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/

snallygaster said:

I thought we had one, but I can't find it. GOA claims 2.5M defensive gun uses per year, on average. I'm skeptical of that number, but there's no doubting defensive gun use events occur frequently. This thread is intended to serve as a repository for these events.

I came across this article and thought it would be a good way to kick things off.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/12/p...luding-capturing-ms-13-member-fleeing-police/

Click to expand...

Defensive gun use is a difficult number to nail down. If "gun use" is defined as "shots fired in defense", it would be easier to track - such cases normally would get reported and counted.

But how many defensive uses of a gun simply include the deterrence of *having* a gun - and in this case I mean specific instances where a person has a known antagonist (thinking abused spouse, etc.) and makes it KNOWN that they have a gun. Then there's also cases where the simple presence of a gun (brandishing or showing it at the right time, etc.) results in something bad NOT happening and perhaps not getting reported. And so on.

These stories always make for a good read though...like the one above regarding MS-13.

DC-W said:

This subreddit tracks Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) daily. Something to bookmark!
https://www.reddit.com/r/dgu/

Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks!

5cary said:

Defensive gun use is a difficult number to nail down. If "gun use" is defined as "shots fired in defense", it would be easier to track - such cases normally would get reported and counted.

But how many defensive uses of a gun simply include the deterrence of *having* a gun - and in this case I mean specific instances where a person has a known antagonist (thinking abused spouse, etc.) and makes it KNOWN that they have a gun. Then there's also cases where the simple presence of a gun (brandishing or showing it at the right time, etc.) results in something bad NOT happening and perhaps not getting reported. And so on.

These stories always make for a good read though...like the one above regarding MS-13.

Click to expand...

Totally agree.

I do think 2.5 million/year is a reasonable number. And crimes prevented because of gun ownership are likely double or more that number.

Look at DC. It has 26% gun ownership, about 0.3% registered (legal) non -leo gun owners, about 0.3% MPD and perhaps up to 0.3% non MPD (federal) leos. in other words 1% of DC possesses guns legally and 25% illegally. Do you think an illegal gun owner is going even tell tell a surveyor they own a gun, never mind report to police or anyone the use (99% brandishing) of one to stop an attack on them?

The idea of collecting anecdotes as useful is just wrong. The academic studies show 500,000 to three million uses a year, and probably at a minimum a million crimes prevented.

I disagree that it’s useless to collect anecdotes. I’m often asked by people to provide examples. IMO stories are more compelling than numbers - a mix of both are most persuasive.


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86% of all statistics are made up.

snallygaster said:

I disagree that it’s useless to collect anecdotes. I’m often asked by people to provide examples. IMO stories are more compelling than numbers - a mix of both are most persuasive.

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Absolutely! Verified personal accounts of a DGU are the best medicine to counteract schemes such as the MPGV's "Behind the Statistics" propaganda.

http://behindthestatistics.org/about/

Maryland Case Search has already provided some insight into the "victims" they document but showing firearms being used to prevent violent crime will go even further.

snallygaster said:

I thought we had one, but I can't find it. GOA claims 2.5M defensive gun uses per year, on average. I'm skeptical of that number, but there's no doubting defensive gun use events occur frequently. This thread is intended to serve as a repository for these events.

I came across this article and thought it would be a good way to kick things off.

https://crimeresearch.org/2017/12/p...luding-capturing-ms-13-member-fleeing-police/

Click to expand...

The NRA publishes a page of anecdotes on defensive gun uses every month in American Rifleman.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/

V-S

snallygaster said:

I disagree that it’s useless to collect anecdotes. I’m often asked by people to provide examples. IMO stories are more compelling than numbers - a mix of both are most persuasive.


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Click to expand...

snallygaster said:

I disagree that it’s useless to collect anecdotes. I’m often asked by people to provide examples. IMO stories are more compelling than numbers - a mix of both are most persuasive.
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Click to expand...

You are right. Useless wrong for me to use.

What I mean is yes, stories are compelling, but not in a good way when it comes to policy. There are a lot of stories and anecdotes the anti-Second Amendment lobby deploys of innocents and kids being killed "by guns."

Also what if at some point in time or place defensive gun uses are less than "gun violence" numbers? What does that argue for? We ought to recognize that playing the same game as the anti-second amendment lobby also has some downsides.

Consider also the fourth, fifth, sixth amendments as well as fact that the US has the strongest and Constitution-based prohibition on double jeopardy. All of those can be shown to cause crime, violence and death of innocents. Certainly every day there are criminals who go without being detected, or if detected are not convicted due to the US's uniquely strong Constitution based criminal privacy, warrant, evidence exclusion and criminal defense laws. There are huge numbers of people who are killed or harmed due to the fourth, fifth and sixth amendments. People murder or raped by a criminal who was either undetected in earlier crimes, or got off in court due to difficult to obtain warrant, bad warrant or search, etc., Objective examples of innocents "saved" by the fourth, fifth and sixth to balance that out would be lower.

We need to keep main focus on the fact that the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth are NOT supposed to provide increased safety from individual harm or population health -- but accrue, together, to reduce risk of and deter every government, throurgh all of history, impulse toward tyranny or tyrannical actions.

It is precisely the fact that we know there is a cost -- a danger from having those liberties recognized and guaranteed -- and accept that cost that makes America most free and most protected from the most evil force in the world and the proven most violent force as well: government tyranny.


In places like Australia and virtually all developed democracies, warrants are easier to get, cover more evidence not specified in the warrant. Terry type and stop and frisk stops are easier to execute. Even double jeopardy is different. In much of Europe prosecutors have more latitude. Etc. There is more certainty of criminal action being detected and successfully prosecuted. This "saves lives." The US system is not accidentally or incidentally worse at that -- it is a trade-off we intentionally make since our rights are more important

That number is attributed originally to Criminologist Gary Kleck. The antis, of course, nearly became hysterical and denounced it on every conceivable basis. Here's an interesting interview with Kleck.

http://ariarmstrong.com/2015/11/criminologist-gary-kleck-on-guns-crime-and-their-study/

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

86% of all statistics are made up.

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I don't know about that, I believe it is more like 88%. I saw that in a book, so it has to be correct. Lol


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