Form 1 SBR "disapproved" because AW are Illegal in MD??

drfroglegs · Jan 8, 2015

Captnstabn said:
I was disapproved today by ted. Reasons below. I don't understand the part about my name, it matches exactly as on the trust down to middle initial and capitalization. The second half about md law is pretty much expected at this point, although it doesn't make much sense either.

Does anyone have his email? I called and left a message, but getting him on the phone seems impossible, and I'd rather have a written answer.

Submitted 12/2 with msp letter attached.

NAME OF APPLICANT INCORRECT COMPARED TO SUPPORTING DOCUMENT IDENTIFYING TRUST AGREEMENT - ALSO SHOULD VERIFY THE REQUEST, WHERE THE STATE OF MD NOT TO CONSIDER THE MAKING OF AN ASSAULT WEAPON ? PROHIBITED, REFUND IN PROCESS...TEC

You're probably wasting your time with Ted. I sent him an email asking him why my initial one was disapproved and he instantly replied. I replied again and he instantly replied. However, once I understood his request and tried to correct his (mis)thinking, he has not replied to a single one of my 10 emails to him.

ted.clutter@atf.gov

I would suggest you email Cpl Jason Edwards with your dissatisfaction and ask him if SBR are still legal in MD. Tell him Ted Clutter disapproved it (he is well aware of who he is). We need to keep filling up his inbox until he gets this shit straight.

jason.edwards@maryland.gov

Captnstabn · Jan 8, 2015

schnejerator said:
Sorry to hear this... they denied my F4 trust suppressor for similar name issues last November (dont know who it was as dealer submitted for me).

Guess I know what to expect next week in my SBR...

What did you have to do to fix it?

schnejerator · Jan 8, 2015

Captnstabn said:
What did you have to do to fix it?

My specific issue was that I filled it out with my name and trust info, and also didn't append my name and signature with ", TRUSTEE". Heather Thompson was the disapprover.

I guess they wanted section 2a to JUST list the trust info, and the signature to include TRUSTEE.

Mailed it back (with another suppressor application) just before Thanksgiving, so too soon to tell if they are "happy" with it...

Captnstabn · Jan 8, 2015

Roger. I'm more worried about correcting that at this point. I have several form 4s upcoming and don't want them returned for the same problem as this.

Can I call and speak to another examiner about it or am I stuck with trying to get ted to answer me, since he reviewed my form?

OrbitalEllipses · Jan 8, 2015

schnejerator said:
My specific issue was that I filled it out with my name and trust info, but didn't append my name and signature with ", TRUSTEE". I didn't contact BATFE directly (my dealer did) but apparently they weren't sure why it was denied not sent back for correction. I also didn't think to ask for the original so I dont know who denied it.

Mailed it back (with another suppressor application) just before Thanksgiving, so too soon to tell if they are "happy" with it...

In 3b or 8? My electronically signed Form 1 just has my name and they had no problems approving it last year.

schnejerator · Jan 8, 2015

Form 4, so paper only still. Dealer didnt specify whether it was name and address or signature; we updated both when resubmitting.

I didnt have problems with my trust for a form 1 SBR last summer either.

Captnstabn · Jan 8, 2015

Just got off the phone with Ted...

For starters, following this video from silencershop screwed me. They have edited it now to be correct, but at 1:35 he says to put your name in (there is a popup now that corrected it). It should be the name of the trust, not your name. That is where I messed up. So if anyone else followed that video before they edited it, your form will be disapproved.

I talked to him about the MD stuff for like 15 mins. He basically said everything that has been talked about in this thread already. They want something official from the MSP stating SBR's are legal to own. I asked him about the advisory, and he said it wasn't clear enough to them. He literally said to stop sending it in, they have it and it's not good enough.

He seemed like a pretty cool dude. I think they feel like MD put out a confusing law, and expect the ATF to interpret it. They aren't willing to do that.

He told me to resubmit if I could prove that my SBR is legal for me to own in MD. I have no idea how to do that. Maybe emailing Cpl Edwards, telling him exactly what my SBR will be and asking if its OK for me to own in MD. Then again, I don't know that they will accept a "Yes, that's OK" email from a corporal in the MSP.

He did say he kicked mine back because of the obvious problem, and that they would have held off disapproving it until they hear from the state. That maybe why a bunch of you that have been in process for awhile haven't heard anything back yet.

This whole thing is starting to not be worth it. I was gonna do a bcm 11.5", but may end up just pinning a 14.5". 3" is not really worth all this hassle.

outrider58 · Jan 8, 2015

That's the rout i'm going, for now.

Wayne1one · Jan 8, 2015

Captnstabn said:
I asked him about the advisory, and he said it wasn't clear enough to them. He literally said to stop sending it in, they have it and it's not good enough.

This part is what's pissing me off! Okay in one breath the law is not clear, but yet still the advisory that that explains that SBRs are not banned is not clear too. But the ATF is not willing to interpret it? That's funny, not to add that they want some information but can't specify what that info is! :sad20:

schnejerator · Jan 8, 2015

schnejerator said:
My specific issue was that I filled it out with my name and trust info, and also didn't append my name and signature with ", TRUSTEE". Heather Thompson was the disapprover.

I guess they wanted section 2a to JUST list the trust info, and the signature to include TRUSTEE.

Mailed it back (with another suppressor application) just before Thanksgiving, so too soon to tell if they are "happy" with it...

Apologies for the misinformation, but I stopped by my dealer on the way home from work to put my eyes on the disapproved form 4. I just wasn't trusting my memory 100%...

SWO Daddy · Jan 8, 2015

Captnstabn said:
Just got off the phone with Ted...

For starters, following this video from silencershop screwed me. They have edited it now to be correct, but at 1:35 he says to put your name in (there is a popup now that corrected it). It should be the name of the trust, not your name. That is where I messed up. So if anyone else followed that video before they edited it, your form will be disapproved.

I talked to him about the MD stuff for like 15 mins. He basically said everything that has been talked about in this thread already. They want something official from the MSP stating SBR's are legal to own. I asked him about the advisory, and he said it wasn't clear enough to them. He literally said to stop sending it in, they have it and it's not good enough.

He seemed like a pretty cool dude. I think they feel like MD put out a confusing law, and expect the ATF to interpret it. They aren't willing to do that.

He told me to resubmit if I could prove that my SBR is legal for me to own in MD. I have no idea how to do that. Maybe emailing Cpl Edwards, telling him exactly what my SBR will be and asking if its OK for me to own in MD. Then again, I don't know that they will accept a "Yes, that's OK" email from a corporal in the MSP.

He did say he kicked mine back because of the obvious problem, and that they would have held off disapproving it until they hear from the state. That maybe why a bunch of you that have been in process for awhile haven't heard anything back yet.

This whole thing is starting to not be worth it. I was gonna do a bcm 11.5", but may end up just pinning a 14.5". 3" is not really worth all this hassle.

That's depressing....it doesn't sound like there's been any progress. At least we know where we stand, I guess....

fabsroman · Jan 9, 2015

Guys, what is the OAL of an AR-15 with a pinned comp on it to make the barrel length 16"? versus an SBR if I pin a comp to that barrel to make the OAL 29.1"? Off the top of my head, I am guessing 5". Then, I am wondering if I really want an 8.5" barrel with a comp pinned to it on a .300 AAC and/or .458 SOCOM. So, then we would be talking about just a couple of inches.

I am sitting here wondering if waiting on MSP/ATF/Frosh/Hogan/General Assembly to clear this log jam is worth me sitting on my plans to build a .300 BLK and .458 SOCOM. Think I can do an HBAR with a pinned comp and still be plenty happy with the build. Then, if/when this mess gets cleared up, I'll apply for the tax stamp and buy another barrel and comp.

ironpony · Jan 9, 2015

fabsroman said:
Guys, what is the OAL of an AR-15 with a pinned comp on it to make the barrel length 16"? versus an SBR if I pin a comp to that barrel to make the OAL 29.1"? Off the top of my head, I am guessing 5". Then, I am wondering if I really want an 8.5" barrel with a comp pinned to it on a .300 AAC and/or .458 SOCOM. So, then we would be talking about just a couple of inches.

I am sitting here wondering if waiting on MSP/ATF/Frosh/Hogan/General Assembly to clear this log jam is worth me sitting on my plans to build a .300 BLK and .458 SOCOM. Think I can do an HBAR with a pinned comp and still be plenty happy with the build. Then, if/when this mess gets cleared up, I'll apply for the tax stamp and buy another barrel and comp.

I might just be working on my post count here but ... if it is pinned properly the attachment is included in the OAL measurement. As for the ATF it sounds like more than a communication problem to me but :fingerscrossed:

Fabs you may want to research the barrel length on the 300, IIRC the small amount of powder the 300 cartridge can hold may not benefit from a longer barrel ie the max powder burns up within so many inches.?? I could be wrong but I think I heard/read it here somewhere. pin a suppressor on it

How long do political log jams usually last? That's a joke, please don't answer.

Jakedasnake · Jan 9, 2015

SWO Daddy said:
That's depressing....it doesn't sound like there's been any progress. At least we know where we stand, I guess....

Thanks

Fear nothing, Nor anyone!

Jakedasnake · Jan 9, 2015

Captnstabn said:
Just got off the phone with Ted...

For starters, following this video from silencershop screwed me. They have edited it now to be correct, but at 1:35 he says to put your name in (there is a popup now that corrected it). It should be the name of the trust, not your name. That is where I messed up. So if anyone else followed that video before they edited it, your form will be disapproved.

I talked to him about the MD stuff for like 15 mins. He basically said everything that has been talked about in this thread already. They want something official from the MSP stating SBR's are legal to own. I asked him about the advisory, and he said it wasn't clear enough to them. He literally said to stop sending it in, they have it and it's not good enough.

He seemed like a pretty cool dude. I think they feel like MD put out a confusing law, and expect the ATF to interpret it. They aren't willing to do that.

He told me to resubmit if I could prove that my SBR is legal for me to own in MD. I have no idea how to do that. Maybe emailing Cpl Edwards, telling him exactly what my SBR will be and asking if its OK for me to own in MD. Then again, I don't know that they will accept a "Yes, that's OK" email from a corporal in the MSP.

He did say he kicked mine back because of the obvious problem, and that they would have held off disapproving it until they hear from the state. That maybe why a bunch of you that have been in process for awhile haven't heard anything back yet.

This whole thing is starting to not be worth it. I was gonna do a bcm 11.5", but may end up just pinning a 14.5". 3" is not really worth all this hassle.

Thanks

Fear nothing, Nor anyone!

SWO Daddy · Jan 9, 2015

fabsroman said:
Guys, what is the OAL of an AR-15 with a pinned comp on it to make the barrel length 16"? versus an SBR if I pin a comp to that barrel to make the OAL 29.1"? Off the top of my head, I am guessing 5". Then, I am wondering if I really want an 8.5" barrel with a comp pinned to it on a .300 AAC and/or .458 SOCOM. So, then we would be talking about just a couple of inches.

I am sitting here wondering if waiting on MSP/ATF/Frosh/Hogan/General Assembly to clear this log jam is worth me sitting on my plans to build a .300 BLK and .458 SOCOM. Think I can do an HBAR with a pinned comp and still be plenty happy with the build. Then, if/when this mess gets cleared up, I'll apply for the tax stamp and buy another barrel and comp.

Like IronPony said, I would pin & weld a can before I did any of that other crap.

Pinecone · Jan 9, 2015

fabsroman said:
Guys, what is the OAL of an AR-15 with a pinned comp on it to make the barrel length 16"? versus an SBR if I pin a comp to that barrel to make the OAL 29.1"? Off the top of my head, I am guessing 5". Then, I am wondering if I really want an 8.5" barrel with a comp pinned to it on a .300 AAC and/or .458 SOCOM. So, then we would be talking about just a couple of inches.

You would need to pin a 7.5" comp to make that 8.5" barrel legal as a rifle (non-SBR). And it would be about the same length as a 16" barrel. The 16" would be slightly longer if you put a comp/FS on it.

So no real difference in OAL. The OAL would be about 34.5"

8.5" barrel AR would need about a 2" device pinned and welded to meet the 29" OAL requirement. 10.3" barrel is just about right at 29".

10.5" barrel with a ThunderBeast CB5 is slightly shorter than a 16" barrel rifle.

fred333 · Jan 9, 2015

Captnstabn said:
Just got off the phone with Ted...

For starters, following this video from silencershop screwed me. They have edited it now to be correct, but at 1:35 he says to put your name in (there is a popup now that corrected it). It should be the name of the trust, not your name. That is where I messed up. So if anyone else followed that video before they edited it, your form will be disapproved.

I talked to him about the MD stuff for like 15 mins. He basically said everything that has been talked about in this thread already. They want something official from the MSP stating SBR's are legal to own. I asked him about the advisory, and he said it wasn't clear enough to them. He literally said to stop sending it in, they have it and it's not good enough.

He seemed like a pretty cool dude. I think they feel like MD put out a confusing law, and expect the ATF to interpret it. They aren't willing to do that.

He told me to resubmit if I could prove that my SBR is legal for me to own in MD. I have no idea how to do that. Maybe emailing Cpl Edwards, telling him exactly what my SBR will be and asking if its OK for me to own in MD. Then again, I don't know that they will accept a "Yes, that's OK" email from a corporal in the MSP.

He did say he kicked mine back because of the obvious problem, and that they would have held off disapproving it until they hear from the state. That maybe why a bunch of you that have been in process for awhile haven't heard anything back yet.

This whole thing is starting to not be worth it. I was gonna do a bcm 11.5", but may end up just pinning a 14.5". 3" is not really worth all this hassle.

I think all of these [Maryland-related] legal issues could be cleared-up within minutes if you just contact the Assistant Attorney General of Maryland (in charge of firearm law), Mark Bowen, as was suggested weeks ago in another (similar) thread.

Devil Dog · Jan 10, 2015

Well this really sucks. Doesn't bode well for getting my denial approved.

d_c · Jan 29, 2015

I just got two efile SBR Form 1s back APPROVED that have been help up since October. Hope this means everything is cleared up with the ATF and MSP.

Form 1 SBR "disapproved" because AW are Illegal in MD??

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