Encounter at the AGC Pistol Range

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

outrider58 said:
There is a difference, in most cases on most ranges(not a member of AGC), between a "cease fire" call and a "cold range" request.

At AGC a called Cease Fire by anyone means cease fire. It might have been called because of a safety concern and you might not know the reason. Doesn't matter. When an entire line calls cease fire and you keep shooting you need to lose your badge.

danb · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
Disagree completely. The rest of the line called cease fire. It's one thing to be an ass and keep shooting, it's another to ignore the cease fire called - because someone else on the line may be a new shooter without a clue who steps off the pad toward their target. Safety is everyone's responsibility, even assholes.

Usually there are 3 sides to every story. The OP, the couple at the range, and the truth. Very rarely does one see any of those on the internet.

Next time, with so many people, OP should get the RSO to call cease fire, end of story.

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
Usually there are 3 sides to every story. The OP, the couple at the range, and the truth. Very rarely does one see any of those on the internet.

Next time, with so many people, OP should get the RSO to call cease fire, end of story.

See my response above. Members of AGC have the authority and responsibility to call and heed Cease Fires. I'm harping on this as this is the number one reason people get their badge pulled at that range.

outrider58 · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
At AGC a called Cease Fire by anyone means cease fire. It might have been called because of a safety concern and you might not know the reason. Doesn't matter. When an entire line calls cease fire and you keep shooting you need to lose your badge.

Agreed

Uncle Duke · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
See my response above. Members of AGC have the authority and responsibility to call and heed Cease Fires. I'm harping on this as this is the number one reason people get their badge pulled at that range.

Correct.

danb · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
See my response above. Members of AGC have the authority and responsibility to call and heed Cease Fires. I'm harping on this as this is the number one reason people get their badge pulled at that range.

You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones request to call cease fire every five minutes to change their target, that is not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

Just calll the RSO, lol.

Uncle Duke · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones request to call cease fire every five minutes to change their target, that is not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

Just calll the RSO, lol.

So where are you going with your argument? Are you saying that you will ignore a cease fire, that isnt called in such a way that you agree with how and when it was called?

Squaregrouper · Nov 19, 2020

GBender326 said:
Hey folks,

So, I noticed the forum for the AGC isn't available for posting anymore, and I wasn't really sure where else to put this. Long story short, kinda got into it briefly with a dude at the AGC Pistol Range this weekend who just straight up ignored a cease-fire call. It's been bugging me since, and I wanted to ask people's opinion on what I should have done; I'm a fairly new member to the AGC still, so I know the rules and regs, but not where the fine lines should be.

I do want to start by saying the point of this post isn't to bitch about what happened, but to honestly ask what I should have done/should do if this happens again in the future; hope it doesn't come off like I'm just pissing and moaning.

I was at the AGC with two guests; we were at the pistol range since the rifle range was at max capacity and had people waiting. About a half hour after we got there and set up, this older guy (mid-50s/early 60's, I'd guess), shows up with two guests, and is training his wife(?) on a XD; weirdly enough, they had the target at like less than 5 yards, so I don't even know if they were making sure they were hitting the backstop. I was keeping a close eye on my people, so I didn't pay much attention to the guy until later on, as he was toward the opposite end of the line from us.

We were shooting for about two hours; the range got a bit more crowded, but everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour in sync with the Rifle range, when we heard them call it. I should mention, there was no RSO on duty at the pistol range, which isn't unusual in my experience at the AGC. Me and my guests were getting ready to call it for the day, and there were a few people who'd unfortunately gotten there like 10 minutes after the last cease-fire and were waiting, so I was listening for the call over at the rifle range. Like normal, at 3:30, I called cease-fire when I heard the RSO on the speakers at the rifle range, everybody passed the call down the line, and every shooter responded accordingly... except this dude.

He had his wife with the XD, was standing past the firing line with her, coaching her, and they just kept doing their thing; I figured maybe they didn't hear, but the folks past them all the way at the opposite end had made their weapons safe, and stepped off the concrete, even. We called it a few more times, more shots fired in response, so I went down the line and tried to get the guy's attention. I was behind the firing line, I made sure I didn't sneak up on them or anything. Dude whips around to me, shouts, "You can wait," and then has his wife crack off another two shots, while everyone just stands there and stares; it's probably been a good two minutes since we first called cease-fire. Then the guy finally turns to me, and is like, "What, you wanna call a ceasefire?" I just calmly--not gonna lie, internally pissed--told him we'd been calling it, that people were waiting, and walked back to my lane.

So... TL;DR what should I have done? There was no RSO, and I can't leave my guests unattended, but the dude just straight up ignored multiple calls for cease-fire. Regs say that if a cease-fire is called--doesn't matter by who--you obey it and make your weapon safe; it's not like we were just calling it randomly, either. Is this just an obvious case of, "You met an ******* at the range, get over it," or should I have taken it up with a RSO?

Again, I'm not posting this to bitch, but it just didn't sit right with me. Maybe I'm being a Karen about this, I don't know. Thoughts?

squaregrouper said:
Assuming it went down the way the OP described, I would be the second "Nay" from MSI.

danb said:
You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones every five minutes to change their target, that is request to call cease fire not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

Just calll the RSO, lol.

Requesting the range to go cold is not the same as a cease fire call. When someone yells/says/demands a cease fire, it is not a request. The fact that the call was repeated down the line solidifies that.

danb · Nov 19, 2020

Uncle Duke said:
So where are you going with your argument? Are you saying that you will ignore a cease fire, that isnt called in such a way that you agree with how and when it was called?

Basically I am saying that "Karen" and "Dick" got into a disagreement about when to call a cease fire. That happens all the time and that is why we have RSOs. Its a public range, Karen and Dick are bound to meet and disagree. Dont be a Karen or a Dick, get an RSO.

ArmedInMd · Nov 19, 2020

Scary to see that someone that supposedly shoots at AGC doesn't think that anyone can call a ceasefire on the pistol range at any time. I'm curious what commend should be given to get everyone to stop shooting if there is an emergency.

Squaregrouper · Nov 19, 2020

ArmedInMd said:
Scary to see that someone that supposedly shoots at AGC doesn't think that anyone can call a ceasefire on the pistol range at any time. I'm curious what commend should be given to get everyone to stop shooting if there is an emergency.

"CEASE FIRE"
(All but one here seem to understand that)

danb · Nov 19, 2020

squaregrouper said:
"CEASE FIRE"
(All but one here seem to understand that)

You said it yourself: Requesting the range to go cold is not the same as a cease fire call. The couple at the end knew it was just a request.

Rapture · Nov 19, 2020

Correct me if I am wrong, but the AGC is a “private” range, not a “public” range. The main reason I discontinued my membership was because it operates like a “public” range, in my opinion.

travistheone · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
You said it yourself: Requesting the range to go cold is not the same as a cease fire call.

semantics matter here. Cease fire is a command. the words demand compliance.

cold range is more of a question or a statement about the current condition.

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones request to call cease fire every five minutes to change their target, that is not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

Just calll the RSO, lol.

If someone keeps calling endless cease fires, go get an RSO because they are the one being an ass. Otherwise, yes, according to the range rules you must honor a member's Cease Fire because you don't know why they called it. Once you decide it's OK to ignore one because you think you know why it was called you've taken a huge step into becoming unsafe on that range.

What club do you belong to? Perhaps you should ask your leadership what they think about your take on the situation.

teratos · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
"There was no RSO" seems to me to be the operative problem.

When there is no RSO the ranges at AGC are "self regulating" - "self regulating" means just that, there has to be a common understanding / agreement to call cease fire among everyone. There was no cease fire "command" here. No one really has the authority to "call" a cease fire when the range is self regulating, it's more like a polite request. People can say no ("let me finish this mag" etc.). It happens. The response "you can wait" seems to me it was interpreted as a not-so-polite request. Or more like "you don't really have the authority to boss me"

Did someone make the OP the RSO or give them authority? No. Some people declined the request for a cease fire. It happens.

Its not unusual for the pistol range to be self regulating, but its also not unusual when there is a single RSO for people to wait until the RSO comes over from the rifle range to call cease fire after they finish there.

This experience is exactly why I wait for the orange hat to call cease fire when there is a lot of people, rather than take over. I would have gone to get the RSO to call cease fire myself.

My feeling is that no rules were broken here, just a disagreement who was really in charge. The answer is, no one really, which is the problem.

Remind me never to shoot anywhere near you.

danb · Nov 19, 2020

travistheone said:
semantics matter here. Cease fire is a command. the words demand compliance.

cold range is more of a question or a statement about the current condition.

This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.

teratos said:
Remind me never to shoot anywhere near you.

This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

jokie · Nov 19, 2020

so how did your wife like the XD?

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.

This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

Remind me never to shoot near you. Yes, I would have brought over an RSO like I mentioned in my first response. Once that person heard what had transpired, that the rest of the line had called Cease Fire, the badge would have been pulled. Jim doesn't cut any slack on Cease Fire calls and has taught the other RSOs the same.

danb · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
Remind me never to shoot near you.

Unfortunately I have seen both sides of this story at AGC. People dont agree to reasonable range requests, and people who elect themselves RSO and think that their own schedule is the most important.

If you dont want to be around any of these people, myself included, dont go to a public range.

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