ATF Issues Cease & Desist for Honey Badger Pistol

danb · Oct 15, 2020

Where did it come from ATF? ATF took lessons from the Maryland State Police and made stuff up.

The only reason we know about it is that ATF was forced to reveal it in a criminal trial a while back.

Keep in mind though since it is not an official regulation and has never been through the rule making process, they are free to make different stuff up at any time- and not disclose it, the same way they did not disclose it before.

Its only a matter of time now before the Biden administration kills these completely. Its been a Bloomberg wet dream for years.

m1carbine · Oct 15, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
Where did the come up with this magic LOP thing anyway? I’m pretty sure many pistol braces when fully extended would exceed the LOP the ATF likes, wouldn’t they?

The length of pull is supposed to serve as a divider between braces the might accidentally get put against your shoulder and stocks which are designed to get placed against your shoulder. The majority of commercially made braces are shorter than the 13.5 by a reasonable safety margin, SB says theirs is 12.5" on an ar pistol. SB thought went through the process of submitting theirs to the ATF and worked out an agreement with the ATF higher-ups about it.

The other difference between Q's and the other braces I have looked at is the adjustments. Q's one has two settings whereas most others have multiple in between fully extended and closed. I don't know if that is making any difference in this situation.

JMangle · Oct 16, 2020

JerseyMike said:
Trump won’t let this happen, he is pro 2A and pro constitution.

He may not be around much longer, sad to say.

teratos said:
Drill a third hole. Go big or go home.

Pic attached.

Decoy said:
3 to 4 million braces have been sold, sounds like "common use" to me.

I guess I should buy a few real quick, gotta pump those numbers up - those are rookie numbers.

Devonian said:
How the ATF measured the Honey Badger vs the proper way, parallel to the bore.

No surprise that the ATF doesn't know how to use a ruler.

m1carbine said:
The length of pull is supposed to serve as a divider between braces the might accidentally get put against your shoulder and stocks which are designed to get placed against your shoulder.

> Accidentally

smokey · Oct 26, 2020

Ready ACB?

jc1240 · Oct 26, 2020

The video Smokey posted is about the ATF possibly changing AR/AK style pistols to be AOWs.

Here is the law firm's letter referenced in the video and referenced by Military Arms Channel also referenced in the above video.

https://comms.wiley.law/8/3583/octo...ports-and-may-require-nfa-registration(2).asp

Maybe President Trump (never gets old) is waiting for the election to be over, but I really hope he reigns in the ATF. They just make things up as they go.

erwos · Oct 26, 2020

lololololol thinking Trump cares a bit about your pistol braces. Priceless.

Plus side, I'm gonna be able to do the "I TOLD YOU SO" thing to about several hundred people on the Interwebs, so that should keep me happy for a while.

fidelity · Oct 26, 2020

ATF regulatory ban checklist

1. bump stocks
2. pistol braces on AR/AK pistols (not banned, per se, but you get the gist)
3. ?

I'm guessing 80% builds are next on their list, and there may be creative ways they can approach this.

UBCs/registration and semi-automatic bans would be coming via a legislative path first.

John from MD · Oct 27, 2020

As I said before, μολὼν λαβέ!

m1carbine · Nov 25, 2020

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/11/atf-singles-out-23-sb-tactical-firearms-braces-that-do-not-have-determination-letters/#axzz6empssgkg

It turns out that there is more to this, apparently, it does revolve around particular firearms not being review and approved with the braces. SB tactical has apparently possibly not been completely forthright about its braces being reviewed and approved.

With the political changes in DC it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

fidelity · Nov 25, 2020

Ammoland links to a really well written TTAG overview of the ATF's attempts to backdoor the regulation ...

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/t...egality-of-sb-tactical-pistol-braces-exposed/

erwos · Nov 25, 2020

m1carbine said:
It turns out that there is more to this, apparently, it does revolve around particular firearms not being review and approved with the braces. SB tactical has apparently possibly not been completely forthright about its braces being reviewed and approved.

They have been deliberately misleading consumers for years. There is a non-trivial chance SB Tactical could get destroyed in a class action lawsuit if the ATF decides the SBA3/SBA4/etc are stocks.

Nickberg500 · Nov 25, 2020

Contact the current administration to fight the ATF on braces here:

StopATF.org

jkeys · Nov 27, 2020

erwos said:
They have been deliberately misleading consumers for years. There is a non-trivial chance SB Tactical could get destroyed in a class action lawsuit if the ATF decides the SBA3/SBA4/etc are stocks.

That's not really true. Go read SB Tactical's website. They posted a lot of their correspondence letters between themselves and the ATF as proof that the ATF reversal is unfounded.

m1carbine · Dec 2, 2020

Looks like this might be inter-agency infighting possibly. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/01/atf-apparently-contradicting-themselves-about-sb-tactical-braces/

Mike OTDP · Dec 2, 2020

Were I running ATF, I'd be tempted to use the amnesty power to allow a no-cost SBR registration period.

m1carbine · Dec 17, 2020

It looks like things are coming to head with the braces. https://blog.princelaw.com/2020/12/...quire-registration-of-currently-owned-braces/

It will be interesting to see what happens.

erwos · Dec 17, 2020

I saw those reports, and I gotta say, a little skeptical that the ATF is just gonna blanket open the SBR registry for free to anyone who claims they had a brace on a pistol. Either they're gonna only do factory braced guns, or maybe the standard of proof will be higher, I don't know, but I can't even imagine what their workload would look like if they gave an opening for everyone to just register a bunch of lowers for free.

Incidentally, this would screw a hojillion people over anyways, because if they decided braces/stabilizers are stocks (or something functionally similar), there's a LOT of people who have < 10.5" builds in MD who'd wind up with a hard-to-use old-style AR/AK pistols because a stock wouldn't get them over 29". Ditto for people in states that don't allow SBRs.

m1carbine · Dec 17, 2020

I think this will take a while to play out, I have no doubt that SB tactical, sig, Q, DD, and all the other manufactures will sue to block the change. Also, a full read makes it seems like they are establishing new evaluation guidelines to ward off future efforts at things that can not be fired one-handed.

Nanook · Dec 17, 2020

Mike OTDP said:
Were I running ATF, I'd be tempted to use the amnesty power to allow a no-cost SBR registration period.

Looks good on paper and it would be the right thing to do.

It would also give a slightly more complete picture of WHO/WHAT/WHERE/HOW MANY FLEEING DOGS TO SHOOT ON THEIR WAY TO THE SAFE/WHO YOU BOUGHT THEM FROM for your replacement with a radically different outlook to exploit.

alucard0822 · Dec 17, 2020

Mike OTDP said:
Were I running ATF, I'd be tempted to use the amnesty power to allow a no-cost SBR registration period.

been awhile since it was discussed, but seem to remember it was argued that the way FOPA was enacted, the AG or Pres could open the NFA (including post-85 MGs on F1s) for amnesty periods at-will. Would be an epic, if only short lived FU if Trump did just that for free F1 stamps on all NFA stuff including post 86.MGs. Of course the joke could be on us as we engrave and drill 3rd holes in everything, that at that point most every AR rifle and lower on the planet would be registered with the ATF.

ATF Issues Cease & Desist for Honey Badger Pistol

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