ATF draft rule published to close "Trust Loophole"

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  • IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Rusty, while all of your benefits are valid.

    One very big concern is now all of my trustees will need to submit photos, and fingerprints every time I make an NFA purchase....

    Yes I am waiting to see how that would work out too! I don't know that much about trusts and how many "levels" of involvement there are in it or are all members equal.

    Ideally I would like to have a trust were I am solely in control but have a second tier that would allow access to my wife and kids and maybe even one or two good friends so they could take the gun out for the day if I was not around. However even if I keep it just family, there is no way I am going to get my wife fingerprinted every time I buy a gun. I would prefer her not even know much less be bothered every time!

    Also I think I have heard that they are only valid in your state, so what happen when I take the guns out of state.

    Finally, I am a C&R Holder and have C&R MGs shipped to my door. Can I still do this with a trust?
     

    peace

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2011
    1,043
    AACo
    Yes I am waiting to see how that would work out too! I don't know that much about trusts and how many "levels" of involvement there are in it or are all members equal.

    Ideally I would like to have a trust were I am solely in control but have a second tier that would allow access to my wife and kids and maybe even one or two good friends so they could take the gun out for the day if I was not around. However even if I keep it just family, there is no way I am going to get my wife fingerprinted every time I buy a gun. I would prefer her not even know much less be bothered every time!

    Also I think I have heard that they are only valid in your state, so what happen when I take the guns out of state.

    Finally, I am a C&R Holder and have C&R MGs shipped to my door. Can I still do this with a trust?

    My interpretation is that the trust would be for purchases governed by the NFA Act not C&R. As for the trust if you moved states you would want it validated in the new state as law varies from state-to-state. Traveling with NFA items only requires approval if it is a MG or a SBR. There are forms for that.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    My interpretation is that the trust would be for purchases governed by the NFA Act not C&R. As for the trust if you moved states you would want it validated in the new state as law varies from state-to-state. Traveling with NFA items only requires approval if it is a MG or a SBR. There are forms for that.

    Well MGs over 50 years old are governed by NFA Act and C&R. So can I use my C&R through the trust? In not to much longer (half way there), all MGs will be C&R and so it will become a critical part of MG ownership.

    If you are traveling in another state where you trust is not necessarily valid, do they recognize you as the owner? How does that work?
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,353
    SoMD / West PA
    Soo.. Business as usual for now? If I send out my applications for SBR & Suppressors I plan to purchase/build in the next week or so I'm good to go?

    In the future, I may have to get everyone fingerprinted and photo id sent in?

    That about sum it up?

    Right now, it's business as usual...
     

    doofoo

    Active Member
    Dec 28, 2009
    982
    Right now, it's business as usual...

    M&T - Hurry up and approve my Trust so I can go make a bunch of purchases at once.

    Anyone in SoMd that has done Form 1 SBR builds mind going over a few things with me to make sure I don't miss anything when sending it in?
     

    pilotguy299

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 26, 2010
    1,809
    FredNeck County, MD
    Rusty, while all of your benefits are valid.

    One very big concern is now all of my trustees will need to submit photos, and fingerprints every time I make an NFA purchase. I don't think that is sustainable for me as we are geographically dispersed. Unless I have read this wrong, I will actually need to remove everyone but myself from the trust. The biggest reason I got a trust is because I value my time more than any other benefits. Anything that is reasonably priced that will save me time, is a win in my book.

    What about adding persons to a trust? If I buy a bunch of NFA items through a trust and submit my photos and prints, after I have acquired all that I desire, can I just add people to my trust and not have to provide their photos and prints retroactively?
     

    Lex Armarum

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2009
    3,450
    You guys are killing me. Would an NFA trust seminar for current trust holders and prospective buyers fit the bill after the ATF approves this rule (as we all know they will)?
     

    Lex Armarum

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2009
    3,450
    New rule hasn't been posted yet so we're not even close. FWIW, this is the third time they've posted the NPRM over the past 2-3 years.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    You're asking me to give away ~10 hrs of free time (prep + presentation). However, I'm willing to do such a seminar for a reasonable fee.

    No sir, I am not asking that. I submit as evidence Reply 49 made on August 23rd, 2013, 09:54 PM by one Mr. Scakleford:

    ...Would an NFA trust seminar for current trust holders and prospective buyers fit the bill...

    So I would submit to you that you made a valid offer to give away Prep and Presentation time for one "NFA trust seminar" in whatever amount of time that would require. I simply accepted your generous offer and suggested adding it to You Tube so you would not have to give away your valuable time in the future and we can watch your seminar on demand. Now to be fair you do ask if that would "fit the bill" at the end of your sentence. The "bill" usually refers to a fee for services already rendered. That is when using it in the present tense as you used it in that sentence. So the current Bill due on August 23rd, 2013, 09:54 PM was approximately $0.00. So I would agree to this amount and be willing to pay that in full for a seminar. Now some bills usually are accompanied by a tip. Tips usually range from 10-20% depending on the level of service. Seeing that you have been a great service to us over the years in answering our questions, I would agree to pay a full 20% of the current Bill due.

    All kidding aside, what this really is, is advertisement. I would suggest you write it off as such. There will be a LOT of people in MD buying SBRs in the coming years and it will certainly center around this forum. The amount of business this could generate should totally compensate you for your time. I for example have bought 3 MGs, a SBR and a Suppressor and sold the SBR. I have 2 boys and would like very much to know more about a trust as I am an Engineer and not a lawyer or someone in the financial world that really understands trusts. IF it would work for me, I would certainly consider using your services as I don't know anyone else who can do it and I don't really like the idea of doing it through some website. Its worth the money to me. However I don't want spend money on a seminar just to figure out I don't want a trust. I think there are some reasons that would keep me from wanting one but it would really help if I understood a little more about how they are structured and the tiers of the people involved in it. It could really work for me as my boys grow older and I wish for them to have access to my NFA collection. I am not suggesting that you give away all the secrets of writing a trust in a seminar. I would just like it explained. Then how it relates directly to NFA and family/friends. When and if it comes time to make that move, I will not forget who spent the time to explain it to me and who I now trust that he knows what he is talking about... ask the guy who got my mortgage.
     

    awptickes

    Member
    Jun 26, 2011
    1,516
    N. Of Perryville
    You're asking me to give away ~10 hrs of free time (prep + presentation). However, I'm willing to do such a seminar for a reasonable fee.

    :lol:

    Spoken like a lawyer.

    That being said, I'd still drag my co-trustee along to it. Whatever it costs.

    That old saying "If I die, please, someone, tell my wife what my guns are really worth" totally applies here.

    If this is enacted, it's really not going to matter much in the long run. All the forms are already digital for trusts/corporations, so realistically it's going to deter people from the process. That's a good thing for most of us, because it means lower wait times. :P
     

    Lex Armarum

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2009
    3,450
    No sir, I am not asking that. I submit as evidence Reply 49 made on August 23rd, 2013, 09:54 PM by one Mr. Scakleford:



    So I would submit to you that you made a valid offer to give away Prep and Presentation time for one "NFA trust seminar" in whatever amount of time that would require. I simply accepted your generous offer and suggested adding it to You Tube so you would not have to give away your valuable time in the future and we can watch your seminar on demand. Now to be fair you do ask if that would "fit the bill" at the end of your sentence. The "bill" usually refers to a fee for services already rendered. That is when using it in the present tense as you used it in that sentence. So the current Bill due on August 23rd, 2013, 09:54 PM was approximately $0.00. So I would agree to this amount and be willing to pay that in full for a seminar. Now some bills usually are accompanied by a tip. Tips usually range from 10-20% depending on the level of service. Seeing that you have been a great service to us over the years in answering our questions, I would agree to pay a full 20% of the current Bill due.

    All kidding aside, what this really is, is advertisement. I would suggest you write it off as such. There will be a LOT of people in MD buying SBRs in the coming years and it will certainly center around this forum. The amount of business this could generate should totally compensate you for your time. I for example have bought 3 MGs, a SBR and a Suppressor and sold the SBR. I have 2 boys and would like very much to know more about a trust as I am an Engineer and not a lawyer or someone in the financial world that really understands trusts. IF it would work for me, I would certainly consider using your services as I don't know anyone else who can do it and I don't really like the idea of doing it through some website. Its worth the money to me. However I don't want spend money on a seminar just to figure out I don't want a trust. I think there are some reasons that would keep me from wanting one but it would really help if I understood a little more about how they are structured and the tiers of the people involved in it. It could really work for me as my boys grow older and I wish for them to have access to my NFA collection. I am not suggesting that you give away all the secrets of writing a trust in a seminar. I would just like it explained. Then how it relates directly to NFA and family/friends. When and if it comes time to make that move, I will not forget who spent the time to explain it to me and who I now trust that he knows what he is talking about... ask the guy who got my mortgage.

    I think you would be surprised how much I would charge for such a service. I cannot do it for free but I don't have a ton of overhead so that keeps my prices down.
     
    I can't see anything in any of those releases that says CLEO is going away in exchange for no more Trusts or Corps.

    CLEO ain't going anywhere, folks. It's a valuable tool in denying people the ability to own NFA in lots of places.

    Trusts and Corps sprang up to get around that particular problem. If they got rid of CLEO, no one would go to the hassle of doing a Trust anymore since there's pretty much not point to it (as an individual). So elimination CLEO would have the same effect of banning Trusts.

    But they didn't eliminate CLEO.

    They are going to ban Trusts.

    What does that tell you?

    That they want it to be harder for the public to get NFA.

    This will prevent 10,000's of people from being able to own NFA because their CLEO wherever they live won't sign.

    Make no mistake, that is the goal.

    If they can't f#ck millions of gun owners, they'll still do whatever they can to f#ck tens of thousands.


    How's that Hope and Change working out for ya?
     

    armed ferret

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Sep 23, 2008
    7,943
    McDoogal's
    So is it worth doing a trust now?

    It can be, depending on your personal situation.

    Being active military, I may have another deployment or three on the horizon. If that ends up the case, if all my NFA stuff were in my name, I would have to buy a separate safe (or make other arrangements) that my wife didn't know the combination to in order to comply with storage laws while deployed. With a trust, the stuff stays in the same safe as everything else, and she can even take the stuff to the range and play with it if she wants, because she'd be on the trust.

    It's all relative to your personal situation.
     

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