Comm2A Challenges MA restrictions on LTCs (new carry case)

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  • GBMaryland

    Active Member
    Feb 23, 2008
    954
    MoCo
    The interesting thing about the Dostricts recent case was that the Judges indicated that you MUST allow one or the other; the government much allow concealed carry if open carry is forbidden. I somehow think the MAs system, while annoying, will stand.
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    The interesting thing about the Dostricts recent case was that the Judges indicated that you MUST allow one or the other; the government much allow concealed carry if open carry is forbidden. I somehow think the MAs system, while annoying, will stand.

    How so? If the license to carry is restricted to target/hunting, then it isn't a carry permit like in shall-issue states, it's more a possession/transport permit.

    From the briefings I've glanced at, MA is sticking with "only in the home", but they also set up a maze for the plaintiffs by claiming since an unrestricted class A allows for carry of high capacity magazines that this alone falls outside the 2A so they are not entitled to that license at all, knowing this is the only way to carry in the state.

    Don't know if Knuckle Dragger or anyone else knows, but could they have challenged only the carry restriction and automatically waive the high capacity portion (basically say they will only carry 10 round magazines)? The state seems to be using that as an additional hurdle.
     

    Knuckle Dragger

    Active Member
    May 7, 2012
    213
    http://comm2a.org/55-projects/234-gould

    Briefs can be found here. In light of DC folding, this could eventually be the case that SCOTUS takes, it's in the 1st Circuit, albeit still at the district level.
    That very well may be this case. The judge has already acknowledged that his decision will be appealed regardless of what he hands down. The First Circuit is no friend and will do everything in their power to poison the case and make petitioning for cert unattractive. En banc review is precluded by First Circuit rules. It's almost impossible to get en banc review unless the original panel wants to be reviewed.

    That said, this judge has been more than fair, considering. This is the third case of this type before the same judge (related case rule). The first, Davis v. Grimes, was dismissed after the defendants altered their licensing policies. In the second, Batty v. Albertelli, the court ruled in favor of the sole remaining defendant. The others changed their policies.

    In this case, Weng v Evans, the judge could easily have summarily dismissed the complaint based upon what he did in Batty. However, to his credit, (and I have to include the defendants here), the judge allowed this case to proceed through discovery and summary judgement so that there would be a unique and complete record for this case.
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    That very well may be this case. The judge has already acknowledged that his decision will be appealed regardless of what he hands down. The First Circuit is no friend and will do everything in their power to poison the case and make petitioning for cert unattractive. En banc review is precluded by First Circuit rules. It's almost impossible to get en banc review unless the original panel wants to be reviewed.

    That said, this judge has been more than fair, considering. This is the third case of this type before the same judge (related case rule). The first, Davis v. Grimes, was dismissed after the defendants altered their licensing policies. In the second, Batty v. Albertelli, the court ruled in favor of the sole remaining defendant. The others changed their policies.

    In this case, Weng v Evans, the judge could easily have summarily dismissed the complaint based upon what he did in Batty. However, to his credit, (and I have to include the defendants here), the judge allowed this case to proceed through discovery and summary judgement so that there would be a unique and complete record for this case.

    I'm just not sure how much discovery they'd really need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only an unrestricted LTC A allows one to carry in public? If so, then this is essentially Drake and Wollard, except the police chief is taking a hard line (much like DC did) and claiming he doesn't have to give an unrestricted license because you can possess in the home with the restricted license (IOW-"only in the home").
     

    Knuckle Dragger

    Active Member
    May 7, 2012
    213
    I'm just not sure how much discovery they'd really need. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only an unrestricted LTC A allows one to carry in public? If so, then this is essentially Drake and Wollard, except the police chief is taking a hard line (much like DC did) and claiming he doesn't have to give an unrestricted license because you can possess in the home with the restricted license (IOW-"only in the home").
    Discovery was wrapped up a few weeks ago. On the one hand Boston drilled hard into standing issues for all of the plaintiffs. On the other side, discovery was focused around the actual policies and practices of Boston and Brookline. It was productive and informative.
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    Updated with the final round of oppositions/replies from defendants. Oral arguments are in one week. Think happy thoughts.

    I don't even sweat about District Court rulings anymore. They're meaningless when both parties will appeal a loss.
    I just hope it's a quick ruling so we can move up to the appeals court.
     

    GlocksAndPatriots

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 29, 2016
    763
    I don't even sweat about District Court rulings anymore. They're meaningless when both parties will appeal a loss.
    I just hope it's a quick ruling so we can move up to the appeals court.

    Agree. Normally, I would, because a well reasoned opinion can influence the appellate judges, but on gun cases, the courts are purely political. It's that simple.
     

    Knuckle Dragger

    Active Member
    May 7, 2012
    213
    As of 3:30pm Thursday, we can call this case under consideration. The judge stated that he's usually very sure of his decisions, but after Wrenn he's less that 100% sure of his previous decision in Batty, but still north of 50%. In light of Wren, he says he has an open mind, but acknowledged that CA1 or SCOTUS will have the last word. That said, he'll still probably rule against us, but we should still have a good record to take to CA1
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    As of 3:30pm Thursday, we can call this case under consideration. The judge stated that he's usually very sure of his decisions, but after Wrenn he's less that 100% sure of his previous decision in Batty, but still north of 50%. In light of Wren, he says he has an open mind, but acknowledged that CA1 or SCOTUS will have the last word. That said, he'll still probably rule against us, but we should still have a good record to take to CA1

    Onward and upward. On a side note I find it odd that CA1 has only 6 regular Duty judges. I think all other circuits have like 9 judges at a minimum.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    As of 3:30pm Thursday, we can call this case under consideration. The judge stated that he's usually very sure of his decisions, but after Wrenn he's less that 100% sure of his previous decision in Batty, but still north of 50%. In light of Wren, he says he has an open mind, but acknowledged that CA1 or SCOTUS will have the last word. That said, he'll still probably rule against us, but we should still have a good record to take to CA1

    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Wrenn will make a huge difference.
     

    Knuckle Dragger

    Active Member
    May 7, 2012
    213
    Onward and upward. On a side note I find it odd that CA1 has only 6 regular Duty judges. I think all other circuits have like 9 judges at a minimum.
    That's a huge problem. But we have several senior judges and Justice Souter sits by designation. None of which helps us.

    The biggest problem (apart from the judges themselves) is that CA1 rules make it virtually impossible to get a rehearing en banc unless the original panels wants it.
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    As of 3:30pm Thursday, we can call this case under consideration. The judge stated that he's usually very sure of his decisions, but after Wrenn he's less that 100% sure of his previous decision in Batty, but still north of 50%. In light of Wren, he says he has an open mind, but acknowledged that CA1 or SCOTUS will have the last word. That said, he'll still probably rule against us, but we should still have a good record to take to CA1

    Opinion is out, no surprise it's a loss https://scholar.google.com/scholar_...2949&q="bear+arms"&hl=en&scisbd=2&as_sdt=6,49

    He does acknowledge a split with Wrenn though. Only question now is will this be appealed to CA1?
     

    GlocksAndPatriots

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 29, 2016
    763
    Is their a possibility that this case might make it to SCOTUS even if it is a long shot but now their is a split among the federal circuits.

    Sure, it's possible, but I think the reason that the courts have denied cert have nothing to do with a lack of split, but because Kennedy doesn't really want to find any gun laws unconstitutional beyond establishing the 2nd Amendment as an individual right in vague terms.
     

    press1280

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 11, 2010
    7,878
    WV
    Is their a possibility that this case might make it to SCOTUS even if it is a long shot but now their is a split among the federal circuits.

    We'll see but it needs to go through the circuit first. The downside is the licensing scheme is more confusing than that of other states, may make a poor vehicle.
     

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