SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

Gray Peterson said:

Funny how that doesn't include the Colorado Attorney General, eh?

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Maybe the 10th Circuit can change his mind? Here's hoping.

yellowfin said:

So what's the official word on the stay? Is it just seeming longer because we're waiting for it with up to the minute info capability?

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A watched pot........

Patrick said:

No argument on your points, but Maryland would not be the first to play the administrative game nor the first to be taken to court over it.

There is a line, and it'll be obvious. If they get 10,000 additional applications, keep requiring long investigations and then fail to hire help, - they are knowingly causing delay. One-year application times won't stand, nor will a muti-tier system that puts G&S permits ahead of non-G&S permits.

I think MSP will try to do the right thing, but they don't make all the rules. Starving the people of their exercise of a constitutional right via administrative hurdles cannot be countenanced under any form of law.

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Hence why some folks are still being granted interviews for having their stuff in pre stay. Its not my fault they are administratively slow nor should I be held to a change in the law that screws me because they knowingly are overwhelmed with apps.

DOsniper said:

Hence why some folks are still being granted interviews for having their stuff in pre stay. Its not my fault they are administratively slow nor should I be held to a change in the law that screws me because they knowingly are overwhelmed with apps.

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Still waiting for my interview....

CypherPunk said:

There is some anecdotal evidence for the MSP is issuing G&S permits on the 90th day (91st allowing for delivery). This is not out of character for the MSP, as I believe they hold handgun applications until the seventh or eighth day, regardless of when they are actually “Not Disapproved”.

At least one attorney has advised inclusion of a company policy requiring you to apply for and maintain a CHP, where applicable, in order to increase your chances of a permit being issued and being issued expeditiously.

As I said before, I was recently told to expect to wait at least another month for the app to be finalized by the licensing division after the interviewer completes their part.

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Sorry, I would have to disagree with your ascertion that MSP holds handgun apps until 7th or 8th day. The last couple of transfers for me, my FFL called and told me I was "not disapproved" on the 5th day. Although, I still had to wait the seven days prior to pick up. My FFL stated that he now has the ability to fax MSP the copies and that the average response back from MSP is 5 to 6 days.

I keep waiting for this thread to go crazy... After something happening every week or so its gotten slow.

jmcgonig said:

I keep waiting for this thread to go crazy... After something happening every week or so its gotten slow.

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That's because there are only so many ways one can say the same thing over and over again.

Does anyone have the next "due dates" for the 4CA brief submission?

I show MD submitted theirs on June 15 (originally supposed to be 5/29).

I show Gura was initially supposed to be on 7/2; but dont know when that was changed to.

Thanks

Jerzee Transplant said:

Does anyone have the next "due dates" for the 4CA brief submission?

I show MD submitted theirs on June 15 (originally supposed to be 5/29).

I show Gura was initially supposed to be on 7/2; but dont know when that was changed to.

Thanks

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Gura got an extension to the end of the month to file the brief of appellees.

So what are we missing?

What is our best guess of why it seems as if the MSP are dragging their feet, or are they?

Are they really dragging their feet, or are they just over whelmed and just taking forever, and we are just assuming they are dragging their feet and waiting to see if Legg does something with this stay? If they are WHY? Why not just turn down app's until they have to stop?

Why does it seem they are concerned about Judge Legg's March ruling considering the stay that Judge Legg put in place gives them permission to continue as they always had until feather notice? One would think during the stay they have every legal right to use G&S and send app's that do not meet their G&S standard back denied as they always did in the past until they have to stop using G&S.

So why are they not doing just that? What's the point of the stay if they do not use it? It's clear they are not approving any app's, but it seems they are not denying any either.

If the stay was dropped that's when I would expect the MSP to stop using G&S, but not before the stay was dropped or before the state lost at the 4th.

But there must be something there because they are not sending app's back denied.

The stay give them permission to continue to use G&S, so how come they just don't start denying app's? That is what the stay gives them the right to do, Correct?

There seems to be a missing peace here that we are not seeing. I think the date we applied would not matter because as someone pointed out the stay goes back to the March rule date. So it is not a case of they can't use G&S on the app's that were put in before the stay, right?

Or does the stay apply to the app's that were in place before they stay and the MSP should not be using G&S on them? If this is true, this would explain any foot dragging and app's not being sent back denied.

Could it be the MSP are breaking the law if the per stay app's really are not cover by the stay and should be approved, but are going through some type of work slow down because the MSP do not want to have to approve them but still should be approving them? They seem to not want to commit one way or the other. They do not want to approve app's but they do not want to deny app's either. WHY???

If this is the case it would explain everything that seems to be going on. It might be that the MSP by law should be approving every single app that was submitted before they stay and they are doing everything they can not to do just that hiding behind how busy they are as the excuse.

It will get very interesting if/when the 90 days comes and goes for most of us and no action as taken place, but at the same time not making us start from the beginning as you would think they would want us to do because of how much time has past since the background checks.

If they do not make us start at the beginning it may be because they would not want us complaining where it would be looked into by a third party asking the question of why nothing have even been started before the 90 days were up for many of us.

What's your thoughts?

Merlin,

Just because a stay is in place doesn't mean other people cannot begin legal proceedings against the state.

Technically, everyone who had their app denied for lack of G&S could bring a suit in Federal Court. If they win, then the state is on the hook for those legal fees as well.

I think somebody made a calculated decision to sit on apps. until they have a ruling one way or the other.

Merlin said:

WHY???

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Because they can. As long as the case is still under judicial review, the MSP have reason to stand by and wait for a ruling. The AG has stated his concerns about non-G&S permits to the courts and the MSP are awaiting a ruling so they can act. They are not in violation of the law as the law is not clearly defined until ALL reviews have been ruled on. The wait MAY continue until after a SCOUS review and ruling... late June of 2013 or 2014. No court will hold the MSP in contempt until they have a clear legal path to follow. That’s the way it is.

... wow, my thoughts are put the coffee down! Conspiracy theory much?

I do wonder what's going on, but I am glad they are not just outright denying us. Perhaps its a bit niave, but I think they really were overwhelmed. And I think there is some merit to it being a "favor" to use to not be outright denied. I'm sure theres some CYA motivation for the MSP over not denying any of the "pre stay" applications.

The trooper who interviewed me and called my references was very polite, professional, and genuine in her support of my application. She called on a Monday July 16th, and explained she had just received my application from head quarters that morning. She submitted her final report back to headquarters on Wednesday July 18th.

My application was received by March 12th (mailed priority on Friday the 9th, ETA was 10th but I don't know if MSP headquarters actually got the mail on saturday)

So it took from March 12th until July 16th just to get my application to a trooper for interview. (I got my CJIS background check letter within 2 weeks of my application submission, exact date is at home though)

Whether it's a big MSP conspiracy theory on why it took so long to process my application, or it was stretched out pending Judge Leggs decision on the temp stay. I'm just happy I have not been outright denied (so far).

The interviewer mentioned: the MSP plans to hold onto the apps, until clarification/opinion is provided by the court(s).

I agree with Broadside. If MSP denies any app, it would allow a lawsuit they cannot win.

My opinion -- MSP is a) buying time to allow staffing up to process a flood of apps, b) waiting until Obummer and Billary sign the UN Arms Treaty, or both a) and b).

Whatever... and I do realize the day is not over yet,r but it sure looks like ANOTHER Legless week is coming to an end.....yawn!

I really hope we dont get stuck in this state for 2-3 years

Merlin...

MSP does not make the law. They only follow it. MSP cannot follow the law you want - or even one they might want - until the process is complete. MSP cannot just stand up and declare Tuesdays to be, "Free Assault Day" and refuse to follow laws on assault. Likewise, they cannot just modify state law regarding G&S on their own. When the time comes, they will not be able to recreate laws that a federal court declares unconstitutional. If the system works the way we want it, the MSP is a neutral party who just does what the legislative and judicial systems tells them to do.

I suggest no more conspiracy theories regarding MSP, until they really deserve it. It distracts from the actual people who are pulling the levers: Gansler, O'Malley and the cast of characters in the legislature who are against your civil rights.

As for why MSP have not "denied" everyone under the existing stay ,even though they could...the simple answer is they might be doing us all a favor. They could deny everyone, just as they could have cashed all the post-stay checks instead of sending them back. They haven't and they did not. I'm with esquappellate when I say, "don't push it while everyone is waiting on a federal court."

So if we entertain conspiracies, how about we entertain a more plausible version: MSP is following the law put before them and at the same time trying to not harm us any more than possible. They could have kept all those post-stay checks, made a few phone calls and then denied everyone outright. They did not. That is hardly evil. Perhaps they just don't want to hear the complaints. Whatever the reason, they have not worked against us like they could have. They are sitting this one out as best they can.

Everyone is sitting around waiting. Nothing here is taking longer than normal. There are no signs that the judge or MSP are doing anything amiss. Impatience is understood, but remember that the entire 4th Circuit review has started and is moving along at pace. That is the Real Big Deal and at this point significantly more important than the stay. Seriously.

The politicians deserve ire because they have gone on record being against your rights. Period. The federal court and MSP have either gone on record in favor of your rights, or - in the case of the MSP - are staying the hell out of it.

So if we want to place blame and frustration, why not aim at the people who have openly worked against you, instead of those who have at worst done little more than hang around waiting to be told the law?

Write O'Malley and your state representatives. Tell them you want our rights respected. Aiming at MSP gets us nowhere right now. If we see signs they are dragging feet, we'll step up. But right now, most of what they have done since the stay (send back checks rather than cash and deny) has worked to our favor.

Broadside said:

Merlin,

Just because a stay is in place doesn't mean other people cannot begin legal proceedings against the state.

Technically, everyone who had their app denied for lack of G&S could bring a suit in Federal Court. If they win, then the state is on the hook for those legal fees as well.

I think somebody made a calculated decision to sit on apps. until they have a ruling one way or the other.

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Right, but to bring a case you have to show damages. You can't show damages unless you had proof the MSP doing wrong. Doesn't the stay give permission to the MSP to continue to use G&S, turning down any app's that do not have it?

Merlin said:

Right, but to bring a case you have to show damages. You can't show damages unless you had proof the MSP doing wrong. Doesn't the stay give permission to the MSP to continue to use G&S, turning down any app's that do not have it?

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Yes it does. And no lawsuit will go anywhere because of it. But they have not done it. There is no downside risk to MSP in denying your app. But they have not. Think.

Third Rule of Shooting: Know your target and what is behind it.

That also applies to politics. Look behind the law, and see who is there. It ain't the MSP.