SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

mrjam2jab said:

Perhaps a mod could create a sticky, locked thread that will be updated with specific updates and "where are we now?" posts....and this thread could be where us underlings ask the questions....?

Just a thought

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I like that idea. Give the few people that stay CURRENT with this (Patrick, Krucam come to mind) mod privileges in this section and have them update the LOCKED thread (since mods can post in locked threads) with actual factual updates, and keep THIS thread for us mindless questioners. I've been gone for a while and want to know what's been going on....sorting through 70 some pages (I'm on non-n00b settings ) to figure that out will give me a migraine.

X-Factor said:

I like that idea. Give the few people that stay CURRENT with this (Patrick, Krucam come to mind) mod privileges in this section and have them update the LOCKED thread (since mods can post in locked threads) with actual factual updates, and keep THIS thread for us mindless questioners. I've been gone for a while and want to know what's been going on....sorting through 70 some pages (I'm on non-n00b settings ) to figure that out will give me a migraine.

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Something like THIS?

krucam said:

Something like THIS?

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Wow Krucam, you put that together really quickly!

Hyper-W said:

Wow Krucam, you put that together really quickly!

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I wouldn't say quickly...it's been a work in progress since last August, has cost some scratch, had help from others from across the country...it has benefitted forums and friends from across the country.

Last August, I had a "Bakers Dozen" 13 cases I was tracking. We're now at 46 and counting cases that will impact the 2A landscape in the very near future...fun times!

krucam said:

I wouldn't say quickly...it's been a work in progress since last August, has cost some scratch, had help from others from across the country...it has benefitted forums and friends from across the country.

Last August, I had a "Bakers Dozen" 13 cases I was tracking. We're now at 46 and counting cases that will impact the 2A landscape in the very near future...fun times!

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I've been following that one since for a while. It is likely the best thread on this site.
I was more poking fun at the response time from "someone should put together" to "check this out".

mrjam2jab said:

Perhaps a mod could create a sticky, locked thread that will be updated with specific updates and "where are we now?" posts....and this thread could be where us underlings ask the questions....?

Just a thought

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You mean, like this one?

Folks naturally gravitated to the thread in question anyway, so Mark stopped updating it ten times a day.



EDIT: Redundancy Alert - Didn't catch everyone else responding on the next page before I tapped mine in...

so like most of you guys I'm also finding this article interesting. I have zero experience reading legal articles so this was a little bit of a challenge for me though it doesnt me I didnt try. Could someone explain where the case sits? If I'm understanding correctly the next step is for a judge to make a decisions, am I correct?

offroaD said:

so like most of you guys I'm also finding this article interesting. I have zero experience reading legal articles so this was a little bit of a challenge for me though it doesnt me I didnt try. Could someone explain where the case sits? If I'm understanding correctly the next step is for a judge to make a decisions, am I correct?

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Correct. It is almost surely not going to go our way at this level.

A Quick Primer

Federal courts have (basically, I am simplifying somewhat) three levels: district, circuit and the supreme court. Each covers a progressively larger territory (the supreme covering the whole of the USA and its territories). The last two courts are also called "appellate courts" because they hear appeals from the lower district courts; the 'circuits' are technically called "Federal Courts of Appeals".

Once this case is decided in the lower district court, the loser will appeal to the "4th Circuit Court of Appeals". That circuit covers MD, VA, West VA, and both Carolina's. It "sits" in Richmond, VA.

The circuit appeal will be argued and decided, at which point the next step is an appeal to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is quite selective about its cases.


If you are new to the 2A litigation-watching game, also check the thread for Williams. It is a MD state case asking for an appeal to the US Supreme Court. This is possible for state cases that expire all options up to and including the state "court of last resort", meaning there is nowhere else to go in Maryland.

Williams would accomplish 95% of what this Woollard case would accomplish, and maybe an item or two off the Woollard list. It would - if appropriately decided - render Maryland Shall-Issue almost instantly.

Timeline's

In terms of timeline, the case managed by this thread (Woollard) is awaiting a decision from the district court. Like I said, we are pretty much assured of losing at this level for a number of reasons and this is perfectly fine (though annoying). This decision will take another 30-90 days, on average (there is no set schedule for these things). The eventual appeal could take another 9-12 months, all told. Then an appeal to the Supreme Court could take another year. So two years from now, maybe.

Williams is already asking the Supreme Court to hear his case. If accepted, the court would hear it this Fall and render a decision next June.

Nationwide, the Williams case is the only one asking for "cert" (to be heard by the Supreme Court). If it is accepted by the court ("cert granted"), then pretty much every other carry case nationwide will go into hibernation until the decision is handed down next year. Other than Williams, there a several cases in California further along than MD's Woollard - so if Williams does not get cert then the next most likely case to request a hearing at the Supreme Court is from CA.

There are a lot of pieces on the chess-board, but most all of them are currently controlled by our side: we chose when and where to fight and we define the things we fight over. Just remember to view the lower courts (district courts) as pawns: losing a pawn often results in a better position to take on the King. That is exactly what is happening nationwide. Our side's frustration is not in losing at the lower courts - it is literally that we are not losing fast enough. Our goal is to get to the top court ASAP and the states keep playing games to slow us down.

No matter. We'll win in the end. And evidence is mounting that the other side knows it and is preparing for it.

They are trying to delay hoping that BHO gets reelected and the makeup of SCOTUS changes. It's really the only way for them to win.

Excellent reply Patrick. Thanks so much.

Continued Suppression of 2nd Amendment in Maryland

Seems like the Woolard or Williams cases have not changed the opinions of our elected and appointed officials. Seen a quick clip on the news last night where they have put out a Police Intelligence Bulletin based on vehicles that are display of a second amendment support sticker developed by legallyconcealed.com Appear our friends in Law Enforcement are afraid of law abiding citizens who may be carrying guns. Obliviously they have not looked at the statistics around the country and realized that the law abiding folks are not the ones committing crimes.
I will be so glad when SCOTUS can clarify our god given rights and bring much of this nonsense to an end. I just can figure out why the State of Maryland continues to push the envelope, when so many other States embrace a culture of firearms.

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wbff_vid_7876.shtml

Lightning said:

Seems like the Woolard or Williams cases have not changed the opinions of our elected and appointed officials. Seen a quick clip on the news last night where they have put out a Police Intelligence Bulletin based on vehicles that are display of a second amendment support sticker developed by legallyconcealed.com Appear our friends in Law Enforcement are afraid of law abiding citizens who may be carrying guns. Obliviously they have not looked at the statistics around the country and realized that the law abiding folks are not the ones committing crimes.
I will be so glad when SCOTUS can clarify our god given rights and bring much of this nonsense to an end. I just can figure out why the State of Maryland continues to push the envelope, when so many other States embrace a culture of firearms.

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wbff_vid_7876.shtml

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That subject has it's own thread http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=59052

OBTW: MDS may have gotten an honorable mention because of the "profiling" tidbit in the article.

Inigoes said:

OBTW: MDS may have gotten an honorable mention because of the "profiling" tidbit in the article.

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The video mentioned ammoland.com

Dave MP said:

The video mentioned ammoland.com

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Damn, I was hoping DD214 would get some public recognition

I didn't watch the video, just read the article.

Inigoes said:

Damn, I was hoping DD214 would get some public recognition

I didn't watch the video, just read the article.

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I was hoping the same.

Dave MP said:

The video mentioned ammoland.com

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Fredy usually uses stuff sent out by MSI or AGC as the source for his material. He's great about getting the MSI stuff picked up.

Thanks for that post Patrick. That was very informative. Sounds like you know your stuff. If you are confident in our eventual victory, I am too!

Wow, this has been quiet for a while...

We're waiting on the District Judge to rule sometime in July/August timeframe, Correct?

Rob.

If I remember the state has a reply coming 25 June.......

rob said:

Wow, this has been quiet for a while...

We're waiting on the District Judge to rule sometime in July/August timeframe, Correct?

Rob.

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J.Brown said:

If I remember the state has a reply coming 25 June.......

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There will be a Hearing in Baltimore on 7/21. All scheduled replies/filings are completed.

August/Sept would be a good "guess" and thats all it is at this point.