ATF Proposed Rule 41P

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  • Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    This ruling only effects trusts and other legal entities. If they took the CLEO signature away totally, they will back pedal away from that shortly.

    No, it is for everyone.

    They posted the following on their Facebook page yesterday:

    DOJ final rule also eliminates Chief Law Enforcement Officer Certification for all NFA transfers. More http://ow.ly/WDc7N

    The link is to the pdf of the new regulation.
     

    dontpanic

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 7, 2013
    6,631
    Timonium
    No, it is for everyone.

    They posted the following on their Facebook page yesterday:



    The link is to the pdf of the new regulation.

    The new regulation only applies to Trusts and legal entities. I know it would be great if the sign off was gone completely, but I don't believe it is
     

    LeadSled1

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 25, 2009
    4,245
    MD
    I have been looking at the new Silencer Co hybrid. Works for everything I have, maybe it is time to act. Still trying to understand the new fingerprint stuff though in 41P. As I posted somewhere else, fingerprints do not change.
     

    pilotguy

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    1,385
    Woodstock, MD
    The new regulation only applies to Trusts and legal entities. I know it would be great if the sign off was gone completely, but I don't believe it is

    No the ATF states that it applies to ALL NFA transfers not just trusts. The information is here:

    http://ow.ly/WDc7N

    There is a separate document spelling out who are "responsible persons" in trusts:

    https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

    There is specific language stating that ALL transfers do not require CLEO signoff:

    The goal of this final rule is to ensure that the identification and background check requirements apply equally to individuals, trusts, and legal entities. To lessen potential compliance burdens for the public and law enforcement, DOJ has revised the final rule to eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by a chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) and instead require CLEO notification.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.

    "If the applicant entity has had an application approved as a maker or transferee within
    the preceding 24 months, and there has been no change to the documentation previously
    provided, the entity may provide a certification that the information has not been changed since
    the prior approval and shall identify the application for which the documentation had been
    submitted by form number, serial number, and date approved."

    The use of Trusts is now DEAD. Transferring Tax Free was never a benefit of a Trust, as your Family can use a Form 5 for that when you die.

    Here is where you can get your FBI Cards
    https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

    The Form is a 5320.23
    6i75va.png
     

    Drmsparks

    Old School Rifleman
    Jun 26, 2007
    8,441
    PG county
    The new regulation only applies to Trusts and legal entities. I know it would be great if the sign off was gone completely, but I don't believe it is

    If you read their drivel, the supposed purpose was to align the requirements for individuals and trusts as far as notification and background checks. They added fingerprints and photos to trusts and changed the CLEO signature to notification for both individuals and trusts.

    It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.

    The use of Trusts is not DEAD. Transferring Tax Free was never a benefit of a Trust, as your Family can use a Form 5 for that when you die.

    Every two years is way better than with every purchase....or is it both?

    I noticed that form had a cleo signature for the prints. What is the best place to get prints for this? Does it have to be an MSP run? MSP college park subcontracts fingerprinting to a UPS store up the street.....that includes all prints for security clearances, CCW (out of state) etc.....
     

    SWO Daddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 18, 2011
    2,468
    It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.



    The use of Trusts is now DEAD. Transferring Tax Free was never a benefit of a Trust, as your Family can use a Form 5 for that when you die.

    Here is where you can get your FBI Cards
    https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

    The Form is a 5320.23
    6i75va.png

    I think it's only saying that if you've submitted an application within the last 2 years, you don't have to submit prints again.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    The new regulation only applies to Trusts and legal entities. I know it would be great if the sign off was gone completely, but I don't believe it is

    Well, the Facebook post that I referenced above seems to say that it's gone / changing for everyone - that ALL NFA transfers will now be done with a "CLEO Notification" system instead of a "CLEO signoff" system.

    In addition to that, if you look at the published new regulations, it says this:

    The goal of this final rule is to ensure that the identification and background check requirements apply equally to individuals, trusts, and legal entities. To lessen potential compliance burdens for the public and law enforcement, DOJ has revised the final rule to eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by a chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) and instead require CLEO notification.

    And this:

    The Department has also reassessed the need for CLEO certification and is implementing a new approach that focuses on notifying CLEOs. The final rule only requires that the applicant maker or transferee, including each responsible person for a trust or legal entity, provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF.

    And this:

    4. Law Enforcement Certification
    Finally, the proposed rule accepted in part petitioner's request that the law enforcement certification requirement be eliminated and that ATF "adopt a CLEO [chief law enforcement officer] process that will include a full NICS [National Instant Criminal Background Check System] check for principal officers of a trust or corporation receiving such firearms for the trust or corporation." The petitioner articulated several reasons in support of its request. In addition, the petitioner stated that "[ s ]ome CLEOs express a concern of perceived liability; that signing an NFA transfer application will link them to any inappropriate use of the firearm." See 78 FR at 55016-55017 for full discussion. The Department agreed in principle with some of petitioner's assertions (for example; that ATF independently verifies whether receipt or possession of an NF A firearm would place the applicant or transferee in violation of State or local law). Id. However, ATF did not propose to eliminate the CLEO certification requirement. Rather, ATF proposed extending the CLEO certification requirement to responsible persons of a trust or legal entity, but also proposed amending the language of the certification to omit the requirement that the certifying official state that the certifying official has no information that the applicant or transferee will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes.

    These are all in the "discussion" of the new regulation. The final section discussing the actual regulation reads as follows: (bolding here is mine, except the section header)

    V. Final Rule
    For the reasons discussed above, this final rule has been revised from the proposed rule to eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by a CLEO and instead add a CLEO notification requirement. The final rule also clarifies that the term "responsible person" for a trust or legal entity includes those persons who possess the power or authority to direct the management and policies of an entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or entity. In the case of a trust, those with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the
    power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. The Department has removed "beneficiaries" from the final non-exclusive list in the definition of "responsible person." However, a beneficiary or any other individual actually meeting the definition of a "responsible person" in the final rule shall be considered one.

    Accordingly, because the law enforcement certification will no longer be required, the regulations in§§ 479.63 and 479.85 are being revised to require the applicant maker or transferee, as well as each responsible person, to provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF. The Department also agrees that a change from a CLEO certification to CLEO notification will require a change to the Forms 1, 4, and 5.

    c. Benefits of Requirement to Notify CLEOs
    The new law enforcement notification requirement provides at least two important benefits. First, by changing the certification requirement to a notification requirement, the final rule reduces the burdens on individuals and entities who seek to possess firearms in jurisdictions whose chief law enforcement officers either process certifications slowly or refuse to process
    them at all. Second, by making the same notification requirement applicable to individuals and responsible persons of trusts and legal entities the rule closes a loophole that incentivized individuals to form trusts and legal entities to circumvent the certification requirement.

    Under current regulations, individuals must obtain a certification from a CLEO in their jurisdiction stating, inter alia, that the certifying official has no information indicating that possession of the firearm by the individual would be in violation of State or local law, or no information that the individual will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes. Some applicants have found the process of obtaining a CLEO certification burdensome. Additionally, local and State officials have the option of participating or not, and some CLEOs have refused to issue certifications, thereby making it more difficult for applicants and transferees to obtain the needed certification. Requiring only notice, rather than a certification, will benefit applicants and transferees by removing a potentially burdensome impediment to furnishing ATF with a
    completed application. Under the current rule, the certification requirement does not apply to trusts and legal entities. Some individuals have therefore created trusts and legal entities to circumvent the certification requirement. This final rule makes the requirements for background checks the same for trusts and legal entities as they now are for individuals. The Department believes the incentive for makers and transferees to create corporations and trusts solely to avoid the CLEO certification requirement will decrease once the certification is no longer required. As noted in the comments above, some CLEOs are reluctant to issue certifications for a variety of reasons.
    As a result, an individual may decide to establish a trust or legal entity because trusts and legal entities are not required to provide CLEO certifications under current regulations. By eliminating the CLEO certification requirement, this rulemaking will reduce the burden imposed on such individuals. Certainly, there are legal reasons to create a corporation or a trust unrelated to the desire to avoid the certification. The Department therefore believes creation of these trusts and legal entities will continue.

    And finally, the new regulation itself:

    From the section on completing the "new" Form 1:
    (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer.
    Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all applicants and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 1 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chieflaw enforcement
    240 officer of the locality in which the applicant or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, or State or local dis);lict attorney or prosecutor. If the applicant is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained.

    From the section on completing the "new" Form 4:
    (c) Notification of chief law enforcement officer.
    Prior to the submission of the application to the Director, all applicants and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of Form 4 or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chieflaw enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if the transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained.

    Ergo, there is no more CLEO signoff for anyone individual, trust, corp, or otherwise. Instead, everyone now simply has to send a copy of the Form 1 or Form 4 to their CLEO.

    That said, I bet this will be a big cluster**** for the CLEOs involved. Will they be required to keep all these forms that are submitted to them? For us, I predict the MSP freaking out about it.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,218
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.



    The use of Trusts is now DEAD. Transferring Tax Free was never a benefit of a Trust, as your Family can use a Form 5 for that when you die.

    Here is where you can get your FBI Cards
    https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

    The Form is a 5320.23
    6i75va.png

    I don't think so. I'm too busy to read this in detail, but I skimmed this and it looks like that section applies to new Form 1's. It appears that it's intended to actually reduce paperwork, allowing Trusts/Corporations/Entities to certify that nothing has changed since their previous approved application rather than requiring the applicant to upload and submit another copy of the exact same Trust/corporation/Entity documents.

    Also, this doesn't appear to apply to form 4's, but again, I've been too busy to try to digest all of this. I'm sure some of our legal-eagle members can chime in over the next few weeks.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,218
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    It appears Trustees have to submit a Form, P.P. Photo, and Prints every 2 years.



    The use of Trusts is now DEAD. Transferring Tax Free was never a benefit of a Trust, as your Family can use a Form 5 for that when you die.

    Here is where you can get your FBI Cards
    https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

    The Form is a 5320.23
    6i75va.png

    If you read their drivel, the supposed purpose was to align the requirements for individuals and trusts as far as notification and background checks. They added fingerprints and photos to trusts and changed the CLEO signature to notification for both individuals and trusts.



    Every two years is way better than with every purchase....or is it both?

    I noticed that form had a cleo signature for the prints. What is the best place to get prints for this? Does it have to be an MSP run? MSP college park subcontracts fingerprinting to a UPS store up the street.....that includes all prints for security clearances, CCW (out of state) etc.....

    I think it's only saying that if you've submitted an application within the last 2 years, you don't have to submit prints again.

    I don't think so. I'm too busy to read this in detail, but I skimmed this and it looks like that section applies to new Form 1's. It appears that it's intended to actually reduce paperwork, allowing Trusts/Corporations/Entities to certify that nothing has changed since their previous approved application rather than requiring the applicant to upload and submit another copy of the exact same Trust/corporation/Entity documents.

    Also, this doesn't appear to apply to form 4's, but again, I've been too busy to try to digest all of this. I'm sure some of our legal-eagle members can chime in over the next few weeks.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    The 24 months thing is only with submitting the actual trust documentation. You still have to submit a 5320.23 for each responsible party every time you do a form 1 or 4 or whatever. Yes, life would be awesome if you could just reuse the 5320.23s for two years, but that's not what it really says... they just don't want copies of your trust every submission.

    My cotrustee (who is also my spouse) just shrugged her shoulders and said she'd get prints and a photo as required, so at least I'm not personally screwed. The industry is still gonna take a massive hit past June, though.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,218
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    The 24 months thing is only with submitting the actual trust documentation. You still have to submit a 5320.23 for each responsible party every time you do a form 1 or 4 or whatever. Yes, life would be awesome if you could just reuse the 5320.23s for two years, but that's not what it really says... they just don't want copies of your trust every submission.

    My cotrustee (who is also my spouse) just shrugged her shoulders and said she'd get prints and a photo as required, so at least I'm not personally screwed. The industry is still gonna take a massive hit past June, though.

    Exactly how I read it. :thumbsup:
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    Okay, this begs a question, for the legally enabled...

    A trust typically has a successor trustee named. Assuming the trust has no 'co-trustees', only the originator would have to adhere to the new regs (prints, photos, etc.. ), what about a successor trustee... they are technically not a responsible party and it would seem that they would have to probably go through that once the originator passed and the trust was transferred, but do they have to submit for forms 1 and 4 also that the originator may wish to procure?

    Reason I ask is that I see references to 'heirs' in the new legislation, but it is not really clear... (imagine that! LOL)
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I'm trying to think about how I'd implement these changes in practice... I guess I'll keep a pair of 5320s filled out for my wife and I, and modify/print them as needed. The passport photos I can do at home (yay for a proper photo printer!). That just leaves getting non-electronic prints, which she can do fairly trivially at her work (it'll be more annoying for me, but oh well). I'm not sure how eForms is gonna cope with this.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    The 24 months thing is only with submitting the actual trust documentation. You still have to submit a 5320.23 for each responsible party every time you do a form 1 or 4 or whatever. Yes, life would be awesome if you could just reuse the 5320.23s for two years, but that's not what it really says... they just don't want copies of your trust every submission.

    My cotrustee (who is also my spouse) just shrugged her shoulders and said she'd get prints and a photo as required, so at least I'm not personally screwed. The industry is still gonna take a massive hit past June, though.

    Im still confused. I get the "Submit 5320.23 with F1/4". I dont get the 24 month thing.

    You are reading it to say that No Trust Sumbission is needed for F1/4 submissions if you have filed a F1/4 and included a copy of your Trust in the past 24 months?

    If so thats less frightening. If they were a tually requiring a 5320.23 every 24 months thats scary because the NFA Branch looses stuff like its going out of style and missing a registration window would not be good.

    I still think this mew 41p kills the reason to have a Trust, beyond having a second authorized user.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    Im still confused. I get the "Submit 5320.23 with F1/4". I dont get the 24 month thing.

    You are reading it to say that No Trust Sumbission is needed for F1/4 submissions if you have filed a F1/4 and included a copy of your Trust in the past 24 months?

    If so thats less frightening. If they were a tually requiring a 5320.23 every 24 months thats scary because the NFA Branch looses stuff like its going out of style and missing a registration window would not be good.

    I still think this mew 41p kills the reason to have a Trust, beyond having a second authorized user.
    I think it's both (either/or)... and yes, it does eliminate most of the benefits of an NFA trust.
     

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