Background checks for private sale

We all know the typical anti misstatement of the gun show "loophole" and how it is exploited in the media. This was highlighted in this recent thread http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=152124

I was discussing this with a friend and we had different views and some common ground on the subject.

I told him that I thought that in the interest of safety and responsibility that I wish NICS had a private Nics check where private sellers could in fact run a BG on a buyer at his or her discretion.

I told my friend that I don't want to sell to someone who is prohibited and that I thought it would be nice to simply have some knowledge that the individual I am selling to is not buying privately to explicitly bypass the background check.

We agreed that it would be dangerous because it would open up an opportunity for anti's to mandate the now would be optional safeguard. He also argued that it would invariably become mandatory and would over reach the law and present a new opportunity to create tighter legislation concerning firearm ownership and that this has always been the reason that 2a's had always pressed for NO legislature.

I suggested that perhaps a private entity create a system for such a service and he argued that it would simply be passed over for the reasons stated. Most would not even want to flirt with the idea. What say you?

We already do it for handguns in MD, so what is the question?

The last time I sold a gun to someone that I did not know ( the only time) I had him meet me at the local msp barrics and did a background check. It was work the $10 or what ever the cost was for my piece of mind. Not required but 15 min and it was easy enough.
It also did not open another door for the anit's as a restriction. It also did not give the gov another idea on how to start a new revision to waste my tax dollars
Just my .02

dblas said:

We already do it for handguns in MD, so what is the question?

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The question (I think) is, should NICS checks be mandated nationally (and uniformly) for all transactions, to include private ones?

There are two issues with that. First, private sellers would need to be able to have access to NICS; which, if I understand correctly, isn't currently possible.

Second, one of the requirements of the NICS procedure is filling out the ATF Form 4473, and then the seller keeping it on file. Yes? Which would be at least inconvenient for a private seller.

I'll risk saying that I'm inclined to have an open mind about something like that. I'm sure many here would disagree.

Thanks for the reminder that I have to print out a bill of sale to sell my pistol tomorrow.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

The general gist

WOULD YOU APPRECIATE A VOLUNTARY NICS CHECK THAT YOU PERSONALLY CAN CONDUCT WITHOUT THE NEED OF A POLICE AGENCY?

FOR INSTANCE YOU ARE SELLING A NON-REGULATED FIREARM AND YOU COULD GET THE BUYERS PERTINENTS AND CALL A 800 NUMBER AND GET A NICS GO AHEAD.


bAH SORRY CAPS, NOT RETYPING. TOO LAZY.

I bring this up because last year I was transferring a good amount of my underutilized firearms and I went to a gun dealer in Maryland and first the dealer attempted to tell me a regulated transfer was unnecessary and that a simple hand written receipt was all that was needed. After calling his boss it was confirmed that a check was needed but the clerk was still pressing I would do a hand written receipt out in the parking lot and put me in a position where the buyer felt it was optional. At the time of course backlogs were terribly long and it was a real inconvenience for the buyer.

I insisted on the check as I did not want to get nailed for doing something wrong. The buyers brother was a cop from another county and he said to me afterward that he wasn't going to get involved no matter what I decided to do but told me he thought I did the right thing.

I felt as though the dealer was inconvenienced by my transfer and that I was an idiot for somehow wanting some piece of mind.

No.

I don't think I want more people running a background check on me.
I think it would be another system which would be abused in some way.
I pay enough taxes without having to pay another tax for me to legally transfer MY property (yes, you can say the other guy pays it but in the end it comes back to gun owners paying more).
Someday many of us will inherit collections which we will have to sell or we'll leave one for others to sell. Those background checks end up being another inheritance tax in my mind.

Are you going to do a background check on someone when you sell them a car? They could be an alcoholic.
Selling a knife?

I'm not giving an inch anymore, they will not stop. For us to even think about shoving this upon ourselves is a horrible idea in my mind.

I rarely sell things and when I do if I get a bad feeling about the person or they don't look right to me I opt out of the sale. No one is forcing me to sell it to someone else (not yet at least).

If you want to do it then feel free that is your right, I will not be buying from you though since I have better things to do as a law abiding citizen than hanging out at the MSP station to throw my money away.

What problem does it solve? The majority of the people making illegal sales because of no private sale background check requirement would still make illegal sales. There was a news article about Vermont guns being traded for Massachusetts drugs. Even without mandatory background checks, that is illegal. And they were taking them across state lines so they couldn't claim they didn't know.

I dare say we take a page out of the books of the adult industry.

An aspiring pornstar takes a blood test for STDs. He/she then receives a print out stating they are clean, along with a verification code.

I am in favor of doing the same with NICS. If I want to buy a gun, I go online, put in my information, and get a print out that says I am good to go. I give that print out to the seller, he can accept or or call the number to verify that it's real.

At no time do I disclose what I"m buying, nor do I have to go back and document the transaction as complete.

Sweet and Simple and I know if I chose to sell a firearm, I would enjoy knowing the person I'm selling to is legit.

gprimr1 said:

I dare say we take a page out of the books of the adult industry.

An aspiring pornstar takes a blood test for STDs. He/she then receives a print out stating they are clean, along with a verification code.

I am in favor of doing the same with NICS. If I want to buy a gun, I go online, put in my information, and get a print out that says I am good to go. I give that print out to the seller, he can accept or or call the number to verify that it's real.

At no time do I disclose what I"m buying, nor do I have to go back and document the transaction as complete.

Sweet and Simple and I know if I chose to sell a firearm, I would enjoy knowing the person I'm selling to is legit.

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I like this idea.

gprimr1 said:

I dare say we take a page out of the books of the adult industry.

An aspiring pornstar takes a blood test for STDs. He/she then receives a print out stating they are clean, along with a verification code.

I am in favor of doing the same with NICS. If I want to buy a gun, I go online, put in my information, and get a print out that says I am good to go. I give that print out to the seller, he can accept or or call the number to verify that it's real.

At no time do I disclose what I"m buying, nor do I have to go back and document the transaction as complete.

Sweet and Simple and I know if I chose to sell a firearm, I would enjoy knowing the person I'm selling to is legit.

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Cost? Validity period?

gprimr1 said:

I dare say we take a page out of the books of the adult industry.

An aspiring pornstar takes a blood test for STDs. He/she then receives a print out stating they are clean, along with a verification code.

I am in favor of doing the same with NICS. If I want to buy a gun, I go online, put in my information, and get a print out that says I am good to go. I give that print out to the seller, he can accept or or call the number to verify that it's real.

At no time do I disclose what I"m buying, nor do I have to go back and document the transaction as complete.

Sweet and Simple and I know if I chose to sell a firearm, I would enjoy knowing the person I'm selling to is legit.

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Who's tracking how many times your number gets called?
Along with cost and how often do I now get to pay for this new tax on my freedoms?
You are free to go through a dealer or the MSP now if that is your preference.
Setting up a $$$$$ system to shake us all down more for a little peace of mind worries me.

Cost should be free, just the ink to print.

I'm thinking validity would be 24-48 hours.

Maybe 48 since most gun shows are 2 days long.

.

ohen cepel said:

No.

I don't think I want more people running a background check on me.
I think it would be another system which would be abused in some way.
I pay enough taxes without having to pay another tax for me to legally transfer MY property (yes, you can say the other guy pays it but in the end it comes back to gun owners paying more).
Someday many of us will inherit collections which we will have to sell or we'll leave one for others to sell. Those background checks end up being another inheritance tax in my mind.

Are you going to do a background check on someone when you sell them a car? They could be an alcoholic.
Selling a knife?

I'm not giving an inch anymore, they will not stop. For us to even think about shoving this upon ourselves is a horrible idea in my mind.

I rarely sell things and when I do if I get a bad feeling about the person or they don't look right to me I opt out of the sale. No one is forcing me to sell it to someone else (not yet at least).

If you want to do it then feel free that is your right, I will not be buying from you though since I have better things to do as a law abiding citizen than hanging out at the MSP station to throw my money away.

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I bought a single rifle FTF in MD, from a fellow MDshooter, exchanged DL info, in a parking lot at night, both of us feeling like a criminal, and we were doing something wrong. That is battered gun owner syndrome by definition, and what a lot of people in this thread are falling for, it does not have to be that way, it SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY. Up here it is FAR more common a practice, guns at yard sales, guns being raffled, selling guns in the paper for some cash, trading for something you want, even buy/sell/trade boards at pretty much every club and range, even people selling at gunshows, common as selling cars, lawn equipment, or any other type of private property. Now I can see it for what it is, my right to sell my property without asking the government for permission, it's also an insult for a seller to treat me like a criminal, and dangerous to hand over personal information to a stranger. Assuming the buyer doesn't show up drunk or wearing a prison jumpsuit, it is unreasonable for a seller to be liable for the buyers actions later on, just as unreasonable as blaming the firearm, we routinely preach both "blame the criminal, not the gun, and not honest gun owners", well this is no different IMO.

An "optional" private seller NICS basically assumes the seller is honest with the buyers info, and the buyer is a criminal till ruled out, and may invite liability if it's not used(optional afterall) and the buyer actually does something stupid. A "private seller registration" badge, card or such is the same problem, not to mention it's easy for an actual criminal to "borrow" ID. Most any type of check will have some paper trail, require some type of record keeping, and de-facto registration, and who is to say the buyer doesn't want to call on the seller, they might want to know they are not buying a stolen gun from a criminal afterall, whats good for the goose and all. None of this changes the fact that very few guns used in crime come from legitimate private sales, criminal transfers almost always are criminal to criminal, the fact that there is no case law where a private seller was prosecuted for unknowingly selling to a criminal is telling. If I am looking to buy a car, and the seller wants my driving record, criminal record, wants to call MVA to verify my license is valid, and hounds me with questions like "are you an alcoholoic?", all because they are some buisy body with a guilty conscience. Myself and probably every other buyer not conditioned by a commie state will tell him to pound sand, private firearm sales should be no different.

An "optional" private seller NICS basically assumes the seller is honest with the buyers info, and the buyer is a criminal till ruled out, and may invite liability if it's not used(optional afterall) and the buyer actually does something stupid.

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The seller never gets the buyers info. The seller gets a piece of paper that has the buyers name, and a phone number and verification code. No more information than you get doing a face to face sale.

VeryFarRight said:

The anti-gun left will never stop no matter how much we give. Because of that, I won't agree to NICS for private sales UNLESS

a) it is available to private sellers for free

b) it comes with federal carry reciprocity and federal preemption of all state laws prohibiting guns in common use.

c) A repeal of the 1986 Hughes Amendment and 1968 GCA provision prohibiting interstate sales.

That means may issue is gone. Magazine limits are gone. Assault weapons bans are gone.

Unless the left agrees to compromise, count me out.

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I like the way you are thinking here. I am not sure we could ever get traction on it but boy it seems like a good stretch.

The idea is to get shall issue and then use voter ID card and hql (carry permit) for FTF transfer as proof of non felon status. That is how the majority of FTF goes down in VA

gprimr1 said:

The seller never gets the buyers info. The seller gets a piece of paper that has the buyers name, and a phone number and verification code. No more information than you get doing a face to face sale.

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So how do you know that info is from the "buyer" standing in front of you? Worst case it's easy enough to just rob the seller of their gun after meeting like plenty of criminals scoping out Craigslist. If private sales were a significant source of guns for criminals, which it isn't, pretty easy to get around, same as the phantom "straw purchase" gangs MD loves to pass laws on behalf of, yet never apprehends or prosecutes. The existence of relatively anonymous FTF sales does protect gun owners in many other aspects, it destroys the ability of a registration system to operate, prevents schemes such as ballistic fingerprinting, or microstamping, allows the "boating accident" defense in the first place if government ever decides to audit collections post a CT style law, and provides a check against the cost and complexity of purchase requirements.

In a state where entire categories of firearms are banned, a HQL is required to just buy a pistol, and there is no telling what is coming next, it's not a good idea IMO to suggest the next aspect of our right to restrict or legislate away. There is nothing "reasonable" about "reasonable gun control", or the A-holes advocating for it, there is a point where we have to stop pretending we can bargain with them to regain some rights by sacrificing others.

So how do you know that info is from the "buyer" standing in front of you?

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You check ID already when you sell guns F2F (since selling across state lines is a felony) there would be enough information on the print out to know.

Are criminals going to ignore it? Of course, but it's a quick and easy way that we could make F2F sales a bit safer without the need to force people to do anything.