Question about Selling CZ82

First of all, I know an 03ffl can not be used for business purposes.
What if there was a friendly out of state 03 that hangs out in Md and the Md shows that was willing to help?
Alittle complicated but not illegal. Just thinking.

TLL said:

First of all, I know an 03ffl can not be used for business purposes.
What if there was a friendly out of state 03 that hangs out in Md and the Md shows that was willing to help?
Alittle complicated but not illegal. Just thinking.

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Actually, that is illegal. That's a straw purchase. Can't do that.

Basically, I would have to either (1) find an out of state 03 or 01 who wants it or (2) sell it without mags in-state and then sell the mags to someone out of state. If that person decides that he doesn't want the mags and happens to be a friend of the pistol's buyer, that don't confront me.

In fact, the plain words of Section 4-305(b) and Section 4-302(3)(ii) make it seem as though I can't even offer to sell it from within the state or ship it from MD unless it's to a licensed dealer.

Section 4-305(b):

"(b) Prohibited. -- A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm."

Section 4-302(3)(ii):

This subtitle does not apply to:

(3) possession, importation, manufacture, receipt for manufacture, shipment for manufacture, storage, purchases, sales, and transport to or by a licensed firearms dealer or manufacturer who is:

(ii) acting to sell or transfer an assault weapon or detachable magazine to a licensed firearm dealer in another state or to an individual purchaser in another state through a licensed firearms dealer[.]

Abulg1972 said:

Actually, that is illegal. That's a straw purchase. Can't do that.

Basically, I would have to either (1) find an out of state 03 or 01 who wants it or (2) sell it without mags in-state and then sell the mags to someone out of state. If that person decides that he doesn't want the mags and happens to be a friend of the pistol's buyer, that don't confront me.

In fact, the plain words of Section 4-305(b) and Section 4-302(3)(ii) make it seem as though I can't even offer to sell it from within the state or ship it from MD unless it's to a licensed dealer.

Section 4-305(b):

"(b) Prohibited. -- A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm."

Section 4-302(3)(ii):

This subtitle does not apply to:

(3) possession, importation, manufacture, receipt for manufacture, shipment for manufacture, storage, purchases, sales, and transport to or by a licensed firearms dealer or manufacturer who is:

(ii) acting to sell or transfer an assault weapon or detachable magazine to a licensed firearm dealer in another state or to an individual purchaser in another state through a licensed firearms dealer[.]

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Md law applies inside of Md, Va law applies in Va and Pa law applies in Pa, etc etc etc

todbiker said:

Md law applies inside of Md, Va law applies in Va and Pa law applies in Pa, etc etc etc

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Really? They didn't teach me that in law school. Learn something new everyday.

If you wake up in MD with the intention (emphasis) of driving to VA to meet another Md resident for the purpose of selling a 12-rd mag (or a CZ82 with said mags) and you drive from MD to VA for said purpose, you better believe that MD law touches that transaction. Now, maybe no one will ever catch you, and maybe it would be very difficult to prove intent even if they did catch you, but you've broken the law.

I know some of you don't like us posting about these issues because you think it risks calling things into question, but I would much rather it be the case that people understand what they're doing so that we can keep our hobby out of the spotlight. If you have little "tricks" that you do, that's not what I'm interested in reading here.

Not trying to be a wise guy, but it seems to me that you already have an interpretation of the laws and have your mind made up on how you are going to do the transaction, so why ask people's advice if you are not going to agree with them and point out how wrong they are. I see nothing wrong with you wanting to follow the laws and do things correctly but it seems like you are trying to make it more complicated than it really is. If I as a Maryland resident wanted to buy the gun without the mags, you could send/sell the mags to one of my relatives in a free state for their handgun. It would then be solely on me to go to said state and retrieve those mags if I wanted them for my gun. You have no way of knowing if my relatives have a gun that those mags would work in so you would be responsible for nothing. If you don't want to do that, then sell it out of state. No matter what laws we are talking about, all of them can't be followed to the letter because of multiple interpretations and vagueness that is intentionally thrown in them to create a "Gray area". You being a lawyer? knows that far better than me.

Doobie said:

Not trying to be a wise guy, but it seems to me that you already have an interpretation of the laws and have your mind made up on how you are going to do the transaction, so why ask people's advice if you are not going to agree with them and point out how wrong they are. I see nothing wrong with you wanting to follow the laws and do things correctly but it seems like you are trying to make it more complicated than it really is. If I as a Maryland resident wanted to buy the gun without the mags, you could send/sell the mags to one of my relatives in a free state for their handgun. It would then be solely on me to go to said state and retrieve those mags if I wanted them for my gun. You have no way of knowing if my relatives have a gun that those mags would work in so you would be responsible for nothing. If you don't want to do that, then sell it out of state. No matter what laws we are talking about, all of them can't be followed to the letter because of multiple interpretations and vagueness that is intentionally thrown in them to create a "Gray area". You being a lawyer? knows that far better than me.

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That interpretation was developed over the life of this thread. After I posted, I started researching the law. When I posted, I was hoping that someone had thought through this and might have a quick answer. If you go back and review my posts, you'll see that I said, "I guess I'll have to break out the book."

I by no means meant to imply that this was a clear law or that there was no room for interpretation or that there was no gray area, but I don't believe that this particular area is one that is unclear. The law clearly states that no one may sell - or even offer to sell - a 12-rd mag from within the State except to an 01 dealer. That means that, unless your relative is an 01 dealer in another state, I cannot sell to your relative from within this state. I could drive to another state and hand them over to your relative, but that's it. This is super irritating because that will make it extremely hard to sell the magazines on Gunbroker, etc. If I post FFL dealer required, I'll get 100 e-mails that say, "why in the hell do I need an 01 FFL to get these????"

Also, my prior posts reveal that I don't really want to split up the pistol from the magazines - I would prefer to sell everything together. I also stated that I know I could sell the pistol, sans mags, to a Maryland resident and then sell the magazines separately (other than to a MD resident). What I do know, and what I was responding to above, is that one cannot transport a 12-rd magazine (or a regulated firearm) out of state FOR THE PURPOSE of selling it to another Maryland resident. You can transport it out of state for the purpose of selling it - just not with the intent to sell it to a MD resident. If your buyer happens to be a MD resident into whom you bump at a gun show, etc., that's great. I think if you read all of my posts, you will see that I am on board with all of that.

This law is stupid and sucks. I am very hopeful that the Fourth Circuit will overturn the whole thing. What I do know is that I do not want to be a test case in this particular state.

Abulg1972 said:

That interpretation was developed over the life of this thread. After I posted, I started researching the law. When I posted, I was hoping that someone had thought through this and might have a quick answer. I by no means meant to imply that this was a clear law or that there was no room for interpretation or that there was no gray area. This law is stupid and sucks. I am very hopeful that the Fourth Circuit will overturn the whole thing.

What I do know is that I do not want to be a test case in this particular state.

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Understand. I agree with you on how this law sucks and needs overturned. The law does nothing to stop criminals or make things tougher on them as we already know.

Doobie said:

Understand. I agree with you on how this law sucks and needs overturned. The law does nothing to stop criminals or make things tougher on them as we already know.

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I listened to the oral arguments this weekend while cutting the grass. This was the third time I've listened to them. Every time I listen to them, I get more fired up (and more hopeful). I really do believe that the 4th Cir. will strike down the law based on the high-cap magazine restriction. I haven't thought about this issue too much, but I believe that the law is not severable, so that if one part falls it all falls. If the "assault weapons" provisions were a separate law than the high cap mag provisions, I'd bet that the former might survive under some B.S. level of scrutiny, although the judges seemed pretty incredulous over those provisions as well. The thing we have going for us is that the State did a really crappy job of both thinking through the reasons for this law, doing its homework, etc., and of arguing this case.

Doobie said:

The law does nothing to stop criminals or make things tougher on them as we already know.

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That was never the intent of this or any other gun control law

I understand where a out of state 03ffl would be in violation of Md law to transfer a "hi-cap mag" in Md.
Brain fart fumes have left the building.....never mind lol

I had same issue. Sold him the gun legally in Maryland. Bumped into the guy "by accident" at VA gun show. Gave him mags as birthday present. To MSP or ATF Or not.

Abulg1972 said:

Really? They didn't teach me that in law school. Learn something new everyday.

If you wake up in MD with the intention (emphasis) of driving to VA to meet another Md resident for the purpose of selling a 12-rd mag (or a CZ82 with said mags) and you drive from MD to VA for said purpose, you better believe that MD law touches that transaction. Now, maybe no one will ever catch you, and maybe it would be very difficult to prove intent even if they did catch you, but you've broken the law.

I know some of you don't like us posting about these issues because you think it risks calling things into question, but I would much rather it be the case that people understand what they're doing so that we can keep our hobby out of the spotlight. If you have little "tricks" that you do, that's not what I'm interested in reading here.

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This is my belief as well. If two MD C&R holders meet out of state for a pistol transfer, they are intentionally skirting the MD law.
Now if there is a MD C&R holder selling a pistol at the York PA gun show and another MD C&R holder is interested in purchasing it (a chance encounter, not planned) I feel it would then be legal because the transaction did, in fact, legitimately take place out of state.
IANAL

squaregrouper said:

Now if there is a MD C&R holder selling a pistol at the York PA gun show and another MD C&R holder is interested in purchasing it (a chance encounter, not planned) I feel it would then be legal because the transaction did, in fact, legitimately take place out of state.
IANAL

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I think you'd be unwise to engage in that transaction. Whether you plan to meet out of state or just happen to bump into each other out of state, the simple fact remains that you are both residents of Maryland and, as a result, that transaction is not an "interstate transaction" for purposes of federal law. Federal law does not expressly govern a transaction between residents of the same state, except to the extent the laws and regulations applicable to FFLs require a FFL to comply with all applicable state laws.

Maryland law addressing secondary transactions provides:

"A person who is not a licensee may not sell . . . or purchase a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the original is forwarded by a licensee to the Secretary."

Maryland law addressing out-of-state purchases provides:

"(a) A person who seeks to own a regulated firearm and purchases the regulated firearm from an out-of-state federally licensed gun importer, manufacturer, or dealer shall:

(1) have the federally licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer ship the regulated firearm to a licensee for processing; and

(2) comply with §§ 5-103, 5-104, 5-117 through 5-129, and 5-136 of this subtitle."

Although it does not say so, this section implies that one must use a licensed dealer in the state of purchase to handle the sale/purchase of a regulated firearm, who must transfer that firearm to a federally licensed dealer in Maryland.

You might argue, well, we're not in Maryland so Maryland law doesn't apply, and, further, I didn't purchase it from a federally licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer, so the out-of-state purchase law doesn't apply either. Whether or not either of those arguments have merit, you must still contend with the law of the state in which the sale/purchase takes place. Take PA for example. 18 Pa. C.S. Section 6111(a)(1) provides:

"Except as provided in paragraph (2), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser or transferee thereof until 48 hours shall have elapsed from the time of the application for the purchase thereof[.]"

Further, the NRA's summary of PA law provides:

"Any individual or dealer selling a handgun is required to sell or transfer it at the place of business of a licensed dealer or county sheriff’s office."

The bottom line is that the Maryland General Assembly has made it very difficult, if not impossible, for a Maryland resident, including an 03 FFL, to sell a regulated firearm to another Maryland resident.

Abulg1972 said:

..



The bottom line is that the Maryland General Assembly has made it very difficult, if not impossible, for a Maryland resident, including an 03 FFL, to sell a regulated firearm to another Maryland resident.

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Yes, it can really be a major inconvenience.

However, I take consolation in the knowledge that these carefully crafted laws have made it impossible for criminals to obtain handguns.

Threeband said:

Yes, it can really be a major inconvenience.

However, I take consolation in the knowledge that these carefully crafted laws have made it impossible for criminals to obtain handguns.

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Threeband said:

I take consolation in the knowledge that these carefully crafted laws have made it impossible for criminals to obtain handguns.

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