I didn't say it was (where'd you get that?). I said that letting the application process cause you to avoid it and give up is the part where you're playing their game. And since you said you were about to do that, I chimed in.
handgun permit board members named
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I didn't say it was (where'd you get that?). I said that letting the application process cause you to avoid it and give up is the part where you're playing their game. And since you said you were about to do that, I chimed in.
Dogface
Woofer
I applaud and appreciate Judge Smalkin for his lengthy and loyal service to our Country. His appointment and service on the Board will be to everyone's benefit.
We may have misunderstood one another. I'm saying, the common criminal doesn't need a permit, things seem to work out well for them in this State.
Why should I jump through hoops and have to work towards and ever changing goal post? The time, money and hassles are getting old, I'm on a 3rd renewal and I think that's enough for me.
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I had my permit for a decade (first granted under O'Malley) and my renewal was denied this year despite using the same reason I have always used.
O'Malley let me have a carry permit and Larry Hogan didn't.
Thanks Larry.
danb
dont be a dumbass
Make Constitutional Carry not just for criminals anymore!
I was thinking something similar. Something bad happens just don't stick around.
You may be underestimating Ms Jones
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
I knew the name sounded familiar. My recollection is that he was a pretty tough professor. Granted, I was there 10 years before you, so maybe he mellowed out. Think I avoided his class because of his reputation for being tough. If I am not mistaken, he was teaching Con Law, which I ended up taking with Myers. I just looked at my transcript, and sadly, it does not list the teachers. Pretty sure I would remember if I took a class with him though.
I will also agree that Smalkin probably will not put up with any BS from MSP. Thing is, what does it matter when MSP gets a de novo trial at OAH in front of an ALJ?
This will be interesting, just from a politics point of view.
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
Is the appeal to OAH on the record? My understanding is that it is a trial de novo. Yes, the ALJ will know who the losing party is, but I am not sure that the ALJ will know why the HPRB ruled the way it did.
Only time a reversal of MSP is going to be a big thing, is if it is done at the Circuit Court level, with an appeal of the record at OAH. Not so sure that an ALJ is going to see enough MSP cases to take MSP to task.
Attend an OAH hearing and then attend a Circuit Court hearing. You will note a distinct difference between the two.
A hearing before the Circuit Court is one thing that MSP does NOT want to happen because then they will be bound by that ruling as well. Their was a case a few years ago when a special police officer was denied a permit i think before the board and he went to the circuit court in PG County where the judge said their was no difference between a special police officer and regular police officer and ordered MSP to issue him a permit. Now MSP is now bind by that law ...
Even though the hearing is de novo, can the transcript of testimony provided at the HPRB hearing be entered as evidence to the ALJ?
I won my HPRB hearing for restrictions to be removed , the OAH judge knew the state lost . She was placed into the mix to make sure the MSP-LD won that action and to take back my win .
She heard nothing from my win and was not interested in any portion of that win , The MSP , Frosh and the state set it up to snatch any chance of a win from legal (G&S) law abiding citizens to have restrictions removed . Wait for the persons that had previous restrictions removed and their new permits have the restrictions placed back on them .
It cost thousands to even fight this BS and that is the real reason and outcome the state wants , to put that monetary consideration for it's citizens to chew on Every 3 Years when renewal is due .
She heard nothing from my win and was not interested in any portion of that win , The MSP , Frosh and the state set it up to snatch any chance of a win from legal (G&S) law abiding citizens to have restrictions removed . Wait for the persons that had previous restrictions removed and their new permits have the restrictions placed back on them .
It cost thousands to even fight this BS and that is the real reason and outcome the state wants , to put that monetary consideration for it's citizens to chew on Every 3 Years when renewal is due .
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
Now, this is the exact problem that we face. I am glad that somebody with some actual experience can confirm what I am saying. It isn't like the ALJ at the OAH has to give deference to the HPRB finding. This isn't like an appeal to the Court of Special Appeals or the Court of Appeals, which is done on the record and which the Court of Special Appeals or the Court of Appeals will only overturn to trier of fact under exceptional circumstances.
This process now is like appealing a speeding ticket from the District Court to the Circuit Court. A trial de novo means that what happened in the lower "court" does not matter one bit. The evidence taken in the lower "court" does not matter one bit.
Welder, did you win at the OAH level and have your restrictions removed, or did the ALJ at the OAH go the opposite route of the HPRB?
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
I am not so sure that an opinion by a Circuit Court judge is binding precedence for the OAH and the ALJs out there.
https://www.peoples-law.org/appealing-administrative-decision
Depending on why the Circuit Court is reviewing the Agency’s decision (issue being appealed), a court reviewing an administrative agency's decision will usually look at the decision in the light most favorable to the agency. The court cannot reverse the decision of an agency just because it would have decided differently. The court will affirm the agency’s decision as long as it is considered to be legal and reasonable given the evidence.
Here you go. This is a pretty good explanation of the administrative appeal process.
https://cdn.laruta.io/app/uploads/s...Sections/Administrative_Law/AdminLawNov13.pdf
I lost at the OAH level which is the exact result the state is vested in , at least at that level .OAH is the big brother or rubber stamp of the MSP-LD
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
And this is why I am saying that the HPRB is now irrelevant. The battle was lost in 2018 when OAH was introduced into the mix. Not only that, but it appears that the Circuit Court will give deference to the administrative agency's decision, which and in our case the administrative agency is MSP. Appealing the MSP decision on a CCW matter is going to be some tough sledding going forward, with or without the HPRB in place.
The reason to care is Williams.
If you don't jump thru the hoops, your screwed. At least if you try, you stand a better chance.
Restrictions same thing, don't appeal, you don't have as much argument as you would have if you had appealed.
I could careless about restrictions. When MSP told me and others "you decide when you are doing business"
the restriction is unenforceable. You might get hassled... but never convicted.
MSP Just wants compliance, they aren't looking for it.
If you don't jump thru the hoops, your screwed. At least if you try, you stand a better chance.
Restrictions same thing, don't appeal, you don't have as much argument as you would have if you had appealed.
I could careless about restrictions. When MSP told me and others "you decide when you are doing business"
the restriction is unenforceable. You might get hassled... but never convicted.
MSP Just wants compliance, they aren't looking for it.
I don't disagree with your basic characterization of what I see as well from the meeting I have attended and from what has impacted me .
My big problem with any of that is if they do selective enforcement of their general statement "we don't know when you are doing business" . They like the enforcement control and when they choose to bring the hammer .
They like us running scared because scared means they control us . I refuse to be scared .
Agree.
And, the more law abiding and insane tax and fee paying I do..... the less I tend to give a flying ef what the MSP thinks of me. It's almost quite literally worth just taking your chances.
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