Heritage Training Center question

pilot25 · Jan 31, 2017

Hopefully someone from there would care to provide insight annonymously.

There appears to be a lot of turnover with the instructors and RSOs. Why?

One of my favorite instructors have left recently and a slew of great RSOs in the last couple months and looking on the website staff page there is nothing there.

DanGuy48 · Feb 1, 2017

I looked them up on GlassDoor.com; what's posted there might have something to do with it.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Heritage-Training-and-Shooting-Center-Reviews-E1090626.htm

Glaron · Feb 1, 2017

Wow Glassdoor is a nice reference. That management doesn't bode well for long term survival.

pilot25 · Feb 1, 2017

I never heard of Glassdoor. Thanks. Sad write-up.

Every time I walk in there I see new faces. Most are happy and nice except one lady and I think she is the manager that runs the place. I don't think I have ever seen her smile or say hello to anyone.

Sad as they had some good people there I really liked talking to. If the environment becomes stressful and toxic for employees it won't be long for this world as it will affect customer experience and people will take their business elsewhere.

Its an expensive facility, I was told $10 million start-up, that requires a very long term outlook to just break even then be profitable. I have a feeling the investors are getting nervous and it's trickling down to the managers of the place.

Another thing that is boggling is they supposedly had a armorer there who went out on a medical problem and they never replaced him. I wanted to get a trigger done and they gave me a card of a shop in the area as they had no idea when they will have someone in there. Seems like a lot of lost business there too.

I might have to take a wait and see approach before I renew my membership in the summer. Hate to pay for a year then they go under and I lose a yuge chunk of change.

DanGuy48 · Feb 1, 2017

Yeah, GlassDoor is an interesting site. I found out about it several years ago when I was still working full time (mostly retired now) and used it to help screen prospective employers....good to be able to look at the site and see if "it was just me" or it really was a general perspective on a given employer.

jonnyl · Feb 1, 2017

wow, that's a depressing read... sounds like it comes from the top which is more disconcerting...

Schipperke · Feb 1, 2017

HTC, I just don't get some of the rules mandated. I can't wear ear plugs, that are rated better than the ear muffs they provide. I have to wear glasses.. over my glasses. Can't bring my kids, both who have NRA range cards. TMG allowed my kids to shoot, so again in FDK area with my kids, I go there. NRA lets me share a lane with both kids for $15, they are helping introduce shooting affordably. If you don't mind the $25 a crack and have no kids, and like ear muffs and glasses over glasses then HTC is absolutely nice range, no question. As far as ex employees reviews, well I'd take it with a grain of salt as well. One employee I met there drives over 200mi rt to work there.

StickShaker · Feb 1, 2017

Never heard of Glassdoor so checked it out. Just for fun I searched my dinky company and there was actually a review....from my department....and I'm the only person in the Dissociative Identity research department. :shrug:

DanGuy48 · Feb 1, 2017

StickShaker said:
Never heard of Glassdoor so checked it out. Just for fun I searched my dinky company and there was actually a review....from my department....and I'm the only person in the Dissociative Identity research department.

I see what you did there.

pilot25 · Feb 1, 2017

Schipperke said:
HTC, I just don't get some of the rules mandated. I can't wear ear plugs, that are rated better than the ear muffs they provide. I have to wear glasses.. over my glasses. Can't bring my kids, both who have NRA range cards. TMG allowed my kids to shoot, so again in FDK area with my kids, I go there. NRA lets me share a lane with both kids for $15, they are helping introduce shooting affordably. If you don't mind the $25 a crack and have no kids, and like ear muffs and glasses over glasses then HTC is absolutely nice range, no question. As far as ex employees reviews, well I'd take it with a grain of salt as well. One employee I met there drives over 200mi rt to work there.

I always thought the same thing but my guess is it keeps insurance costs way down. They just instituted 15+ instead of 18 only. They probably got enough feedback to make the cost benefit analysis work with the increased premiums.

There is no doubt they need to keep costs down. The facility is immaculate and top notch but they have competition so pricing is an issue. I wonder when this venture started if they imagined they would have direct competition or complete price control. Not having a range in the area for so long I'm guessing they were expecting the latter.

rohankmalik · Feb 1, 2017

pilot25 said:
I always thought the same thing but my guess is it keeps insurance costs way down. They just instituted 15+ instead of 18 only. They probably got enough feedback to make the cost benefit analysis work with the increased premiums.

There is no doubt they need to keep costs down. The facility is immaculate and top notch but they have competition so pricing is an issue. I wonder when this venture started if they imagined they would have direct competition or complete price control. Not having a range in the area for so long I'm guessing they were expecting the latter.

This sums it up. TMGN has definitely taken a lot of their business away. They are another fish in the pond right now.

pilot25 · Feb 1, 2017

rohankmalik said:
This sums it up. TMGN has definitely taken a lot of their business away. They are another fish in the pond right now.

True, though the pond is still really small. I really like it there so I'm not going to switch anytime soon.

One thing about competition is we benefit. If one of them goes under you can bet the survivor will jack the rates sky high.

Mark75H · Feb 1, 2017

Zzzzz_man said:
HTC is, essentially, a retail operation. There is extremely high turnover in all retail businesses regardless of what they sell and/or do. I'm sure that the employees at HTC aren't making $50-60k per year - probably more like $12-14 per hour tops. Considering that, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it has its fair share of employee turnover and people who are always looking for greener pastures.

Yes, a retail operation being run like a corporate retail operation.

Problem is ... their competition is running their retail operation like a mom and pop retail operation, retaining their employees like family.

DaemonAssassin · Feb 2, 2017

Other than it's a retail kind of place before anything else, I have nothing. Retail has high turnover, it's a fact of life.

Adenosine · Feb 2, 2017

Zzzzz_man said:
Glad to hear it. Personally, I don't care. The staff isn't the reason I prefer one over the other. HTC is the better facility. TMGN is small, smoky, dimly-lit and over-crowded during the time I have to shoot and ammo prices are higher than HTC. I've never had a problem with parking at HTC even when they're running at full-capacity. TMGN's parking lot is tiny.

Unlike some people, though, I don't think employee turnover and two negative reviews (from probably the same disgruntled ex-employee) on glassdoor.com are valid reasons to believe that HTC is in any kind of financial trouble. No, that seems more like a ridiculous excuse someone would use to justify not purchasing a membership at HTC.

Thanks to work, I mostly shoot on the Virginia side, but I've been to both Heritage and TMGN recently because they're convenient to an alternate route home. I was hoping to get an additional membership at one or the other, since I'd love to have a place to shoot in Maryland. I probably won't, but if I were to do so, I'd go for TMGN over Heritage in a heartbeat.

Why?

Heritage won't let me do holster work, and says that there "may in the future" be a process for LEOs only. I ain't that. TMGN won't let me do holster work without a membership and coughing up $20, but at least the process exists.

Heritage has a weird obsession with pregnant woman. Three times in the rules and safety briefing was it reiterated that pregnant women are not allowed. Regardless of the merits of this position, is it really such an issue that it's so necessary to focus on it? No other range (Silver Eagle, NRA, Sharpshooters, Blue Ridge, Elite, MSAR, TMGN, several outdoor and non-area ranges) at which I've shot has this obsession.

Heritage won't let me throw away my own trash. I don't like people in my personal space. It makes me twitchy. I don't want to turn around with an empty box of ammo in my hands to find the RSO up my butt to take it from me. TMGN trusts me to use the trash can appropriately. Why do I have to write this? Is this real life, or fantasy?

Heritage apparently thought I had confused meters for feet when I ran the target out to 10 meters to start, and ran over to correct my "error" in an entirely-too-excited fashion (which made me kind of wonder what they'd do if something bad actually happened.) The RSO was most confused when I assured him that I had, in fact, meant to do that. TMGN kept an eye on me until I established that headshots at 10, 20, and 25 yards were, in fact, within my skillset, then returned to repainting the target carriers from everyone else's attempts.

Heritage made me sit through a 25-minute live presentation on all these rules after I had already read all the rules. TMGN trusted me to read and watch the video while I filled out my waiver.

Your comments about the parking lot and the relative cleanliness of the facility are entirely accurate. Heritage is a much nicer facility. But their rules and their attitude towards shooters means I'll go to TMGN any day over them. Both Heritage and TMGN seem to be positioning themselves as the kind, friendly, gentle introduction to firearms, and that's fine! But TMGN seems to leave slightly more room for the idea that you might, in fact, not be a total idiot.

With that said, it's only slightly. So I'll probably just cough up for a membership at Silver Eagle instead. (Also, because there's a 50-yard pistol range. Because 50-yard pistol range.)

So me not purchasing a membership at Heritage has nothing to do with "people not smiling at me" and everything to do with getting done the things I want to get done when I go to the range.

... including throwing away my own trash.

pilot25 · Feb 2, 2017

Atropine said:
Thanks to work, I mostly shoot on the Virginia side, but I've been to both Heritage and TMGN recently because they're convenient to an alternate route home. I was hoping to get an additional membership at one or the other, since I'd love to have a place to shoot in Maryland. I probably won't, but if I were to do so, I'd go for TMGN over Heritage in a heartbeat.

Why?

Heritage won't let me do holster work, and says that there "may in the future" be a process for LEOs only. I ain't that. TMGN won't let me do holster work without a membership and coughing up $20, but at least the process exists.

Heritage has a weird obsession with pregnant woman. Three times in the rules and safety briefing was it reiterated that pregnant women are not allowed. Regardless of the merits of this position, is it really such an issue that it's so necessary to focus on it? No other range (Silver Eagle, NRA, Sharpshooters, Blue Ridge, Elite, MSAR, TMGN, several outdoor and non-area ranges) at which I've shot has this obsession.

Heritage won't let me throw away my own trash. I don't like people in my personal space. It makes me twitchy. I don't want to turn around with an empty box of ammo in my hands to find the RSO up my butt to take it from me. TMGN trusts me to use the trash can appropriately. Why do I have to write this? Is this real life, or fantasy?

Heritage apparently thought I had confused meters for feet when I ran the target out to 10 meters to start, and ran over to correct my "error" in an entirely-too-excited fashion (which made me kind of wonder what they'd do if something bad actually happened.) The RSO was most confused when I assured him that I had, in fact, meant to do that. TMGN kept an eye on me until I established that headshots at 10, 20, and 25 yards were, in fact, within my skillset, then returned to repainting the target carriers from everyone else's attempts.

Heritage made me sit through a 25-minute live presentation on all these rules after I had already read all the rules. TMGN trusted me to read and watch the video while I filled out my waiver.

Your comments about the parking lot and the relative cleanliness of the facility are entirely accurate. Heritage is a much nicer facility. But their rules and their attitude towards shooters means I'll go to TMGN any day over them. Both Heritage and TMGN seem to be positioning themselves as the kind, friendly, gentle introduction to firearms, and that's fine! But TMGN seems to leave slightly more room for the idea that you might, in fact, not be a total idiot.

With that said, it's only slightly. So I'll probably just cough up for a membership at Silver Eagle instead. (Also, because there's a 50-yard pistol range. Because 50-yard pistol range.)

So me not purchasing a membership at Heritage has nothing to do with "people not smiling at me" and everything to do with getting done the things I want to get done when I go to the range.

... including throwing away my own trash.

That's a pretty good write up. I think some like HTC just for the things you don't like about it. I like the personal attention. I don't have to leave my space to throw trash out and they are constantly sweeping away brass for me. To me, it equates the TMGN to a public golf course vs. HTC being a private one. Golfers know what I mean. The one time I was at TMGN, the RSO was so busy flirting with the girl there he was ignoring others who needed help for one reason or another. I was constantly pushing brass away from my feet. I feel like, for the price, I shouldn't be sweeping up the floor for them. The attention you get at HTC, in my opinion, feels upscale and I think they are branding themselves as such. I don't know if they do that because they want to or are required to by their job description. They are on camera and being evaluated randomly. That I know. However, probably would serve them well to adjust to each customer's wants like you. If they offer to throw away your trash and you say, "Hey, I got it." Then they could get the idea of what you like and leave it alone. If they are branding themselves, as an upscale we do everything for you, it doesn't bode well to have unhappy employees doing such a job. I go there a lot and some of the RSOs know me so they don't hover over me like you were talking about. However, every new RSO goes through the same thing you talked about. Its like you have to prove yourself to be safe. I understand they are just doing their job but its nice when you see a familiar face and they know you are safe and know what you like.

I have never taken a class at TMGN but at HTC they had a couple spectacular instructors who are no longer there. They need to retain their good instructors in order to command such a high price for their classes. HTC isn't just a range. It's a facility for training in all respects. That is a tough sell if you take a class every couple weeks and get a different instructor each time. Additionally, if the instructors are curmudgeon because they hate working there then it will chase away customers. They need students not just shooters because their overhead is just way too high. I consider myself a student and really like it there. I hope to get another instructor I liked as much as the ones who left.

If you just go to shoot and don't take advantage of the other bennies of the HTC membership then I don't know if the nicer facility, with someone throwing your trash and brass away for you, is worth the extra $200 per year over the TMGN.

Maybe there is enough diametric opposition they can co-exist in a small market like Frederick.

Czechnologist · Feb 2, 2017

pilot25 said:
That's a pretty good write up. I think some like HTC just for the things you don't like about it. I like the personal attention. I don't have to leave my space to throw trash out and they are constantly sweeping away brass for me. To me, it equates the TMGN to a public golf course vs. HTC being a private one. Golfers know what I mean. The one time I was at TMGN, the RSO was so busy flirting with the girl there he was ignoring others who needed help for one reason or another. I was constantly pushing brass away from my feet. I feel like, for the price, I shouldn't be sweeping up the floor for them. The attention you get at HTC, in my opinion, feels upscale and I think they are branding themselves as such. I don't know if they do that because they want to or are required to by their job description. They are on camera and being evaluated randomly. That I know. However, probably would serve them well to adjust to each customer's wants like you. If they offer to throw away your trash and you say, "Hey, I got it." Then they could get the idea of what you like and leave it alone. If they are branding themselves, as an upscale we do everything for you, it doesn't bode well to have unhappy employees doing such a job. I go there a lot and some of the RSOs know me so they don't hover over me like you were talking about. However, every new RSO goes through the same thing you talked about. Its like you have to prove yourself to be safe. I understand they are just doing their job but its nice when you see a familiar face and they know you are safe and know what you like.

I have never taken a class at TMGN but at HTC they had a couple spectacular instructors who are no longer there. They need to retain their good instructors in order to command such a high price for their classes. HTC isn't just a range. It's a facility for training in all respects. That is a tough sell if you take a class every couple weeks and get a different instructor each time. Additionally, if the instructors are curmudgeon because they hate working there then it will chase away customers. They need students not just shooters because their overhead is just way too high. I consider myself a student and really like it there. I hope to get another instructor I liked as much as the ones who left.

If you just go to shoot and don't take advantage of the other bennies of the HTC membership then I don't know if the nicer facility, with someone throwing your trash and brass away for you, is worth the extra $200 per year over the TMGN.

Maybe there is enough diametric opposition they can co-exist in a small market like Frederick.

Wait. Wasn't your original post seeking 'annonymous' insight regarding what you perceived as high employee turnover at HTC? Deflecting into yet another sappy comparison between the two ranges doesn't escape the fact that you chose MDS (yet again) to be the venue for a product and/or service to bash. First Sig. Now HTC. Give us a break FFS. You lost any credibility you may have had (with me) with all the unsupported vitriol about the PVD finish 'problem' on your Sig Legion P226. Still waiting to see it, BTW.

fidelity · Feb 2, 2017

Just a few comments from someone who shoots at Heritage semi-regularly ...

Atropine said:
...

Heritage won't let me do holster work, and says that there "may in the future" be a process for LEOs only. I ain't that. TMGN won't let me do holster work without a membership and coughing up $20, but at least the process exists.
...

This is typical at commercial indoor shooting ranges with a broad clientele. Most won't allow holster work. That's great to hear it's an option at TMGN.

In Frederick, as an IWLA member, if one gets IDPA Safety Officer training, one can shoot after a holster draw. Similarly, at MPC, members with NRA RSO certification can also practice in this manner.

Atropine said:
...

Heritage has a weird obsession with pregnant woman. Three times in the rules and safety briefing was it reiterated that pregnant women are not allowed. Regardless of the merits of this position, is it really such an issue that it's so necessary to focus on it? No other range (Silver Eagle, NRA, Sharpshooters, Blue Ridge, Elite, MSAR, TMGN, several outdoor and non-area ranges) at which I've shot has this obsession.
...

I did my training a long time ago, but don't remember this. As we all know, many ranges advise that pregnant women, after a certain development stage, shouldn't be at ranges. More than any potential lead exposure issue, it becomes a hearing damage issue to the fetus.

Atropine said:
...
Heritage won't let me throw away my own trash. I don't like people in my personal space. It makes me twitchy. I don't want to turn around with an empty box of ammo in my hands to find the RSO up my butt to take it from me. TMGN trusts me to use the trash can appropriately. Why do I have to write this? Is this real life, or fantasy?
...

That's never happened to me. I get asked once if I would like to keep my brass. Sometimes I say yes, depending on what I'm shooting. If I say no, whenever I have breaks in shooting, they courteously sweep away brass for me.

When I walk over to throw trash, I am again offered by the RSO to throw it away for me, and more often than not, I decline, although I appreciate the courtesy. I don't get bugged after that.

If I need a chair to sit in when zeroing a red dot on a PCC, or if I need a pen to mark up one of my targets, the RSOs there have always been more than helpful.

Atropine said:
...
Heritage apparently thought I had confused meters for feet when I ran the target out to 10 meters to start, and ran over to correct my "error" in an entirely-too-excited fashion (which made me kind of wonder what they'd do if something bad actually happened.) The RSO was most confused when I assured him that I had, in fact, meant to do that. TMGN kept an eye on me until I established that headshots at 10, 20, and 25 yards were, in fact, within my skillset, then returned to repainting the target carriers from everyone else's attempts.
...

Sounds like a new, overly helpful RSO as per trying to help with your remote target control panel. I do agree that the RSO's there will hang back and slowly monitor all shooters and pay attention to any that need help/newer shooters.

Atropine said:
...

Heritage made me sit through a 25-minute live presentation on all these rules after I had already read all the rules. TMGN trusted me to read and watch the video while I filled out my waiver.
...

That's awful. My Heritage training slide show took 10-12 minutes. Maybe things have changed. Obviously folks don't need to do this more than once. It's a very different style than TMGN with the self-driven iPad training/registration. At Heritage, with an employee running the slide show, it's easy to ask questions and get clarifications immediately, but I can understand how some folks might want to dispense with this. At least when I went to TMGN for the first time, I had to wait for one of the iPad kiosks to become available, and in Heritage, they can do a bunch of people at once in training. Different advantages.

You mentioned Silver Eagle. If near Manassas, Elite Shooting sports looks like it might be nice to check out.

pilot25 · Feb 3, 2017

Schipperke said:
I had one bad experience at HTC I've never had at any other range. I was shooting a Sig 226 22lr. There was a casing that failed to eject stuck in the chamber. The 226 breaks down in a heart beat and as soon as I started was stopped. Everything was pointed down range etc.. So I explained the problem and since they wouldn't let me take it down, asked it they had a 22 rod to poke out the brass from muzzle end. I litterally wait near 10 minutes why the RSO keeps asking for a rod via talkie. Finally it comes , and naturally he had to be the one to remove it, would not let me. Well, he was not a finesse kind of guy and he'd just push the rod in , so the rod would get stuck in the casing. So then when removing the rod, it would just jam the casing back in to the barrel. He then pulls out freaking 3 or 4 inch tacticool folding knife and is about to dig out the round through ejection port of a pricey gun, when all the F I need to do was break it down. I stopped that quickly, packed up and left. Broke the gun down in the lot, took the casing out and drove away..

They state, on their FAQs page and in the safety brief, that you can't break down your firearm. I don't understand the purpose of this rule either.

fidelity · Feb 3, 2017

pilot25 said:
They state, on their FAQs page and in the safety brief, that you can't break down your firearm. I don't understand the purpose of this rule either.

They have an IP subforum. You could go ask there. They probably monitor it more than other subforums on this website.

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