School me on Civil War Rifles

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  • Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    OK,
    I"m headed to the Antique arms show in March. I'd like to get a Civil War Era Rifle.

    Budget about $2K is what I guesstimated.

    What would I be looking for?

    Although my primary purpose is collection and possibly display in the home. Am I out of my gourd to believe I could buy something I could shoot once a year? (put say 2-3 very light loads through it once every couple years)?

    I was thinking a Springfield 1861 or 1863
     

    TexDefender

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2017
    1,572
    Are you looking for a "Union" or a ""Confederate" weapon? Or one that was used by both? The Sharps rifle "Carbine version" was popular with the Calvary units on both sides.
     

    Mike OTDP

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2008
    3,318
    Ok, let's walk through this.

    The first question is whether you want an original or replica arm. Originals are fairly significant - you'll go through $2K easily. You can get into a reasonable repro for around $800.

    As to types, you've got the following:

    Smoothbore musket. No rifling. Springfield M1842 is the most common
    Rifle-muskets. Rifled. Long (~38 inch) barrel. Usually .58 caliber, with three barrel bands. Springfield M1855, M1861, and M1863, or Enfield P1853.
    Rifles. Rifled, shorter barrel (~33 inches). Usually .58 caliber, some in .54. Two barrel bands. M1841 "Mississippi" rifles, M1855 rifles, and the P1858 Enfield.

    Carbines are a whole different topic.

    Now, can you shoot them? Yes, if the gun is in decent condition. They are quite accurate with the right load. I strongly recommend going over to the North-South Skirmish Association and asking around, they've got nearly 70 years of experience making these guns shoot. I'm not going to lie, the rifle-musket is a tricky beast to wring the best performance out of.
     

    wreckdiver

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 13, 2008
    2,925
    If you are looking for a civil war musket, that’s the place to do it. It’s like a museum where the artifacts are for sale. Most vendors are very knowledgeable. I’d stick with the 61 or 63 Springfield like you mentioned. I have an 1861 Eli Whitney contract musket that is nice and a little different. My 1863 is a Springfield, but the markings are so faint it’s a really an educated guess based on other features. I don’t really care since it was given to me by my grandmother and in the family since the civil war. Good luck with your search.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Back when I was skirmishing, 26 - 30 years ago, it was common to see originals being regularly fired in competition. Carbines especially, but also some rifles.

    Two band rifles are generally easier to shoot than threeband muskets. Less fussy.

    But Threebands do have a certain je ne sais quois. That's what was mainly used in the war.

    For historic collecting, a 61 Springfield sounds like an ideal start.

    Did you see the thread about j8064's new 61 Springfield reproduction? Beautiful thing, he hasnt had a chance to shoot it yet.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Back when I was skirmishing, 26 - 30 years ago, it was common to see originals being regularly fired in competition. Carbines especially, but also some rifles.

    Two band rifles are generally easier to shoot than threeband muskets. Less fussy.

    But Threebands do have a certain je ne sais quois. That's what was mainly used in the war.

    For historic collecting, a 61 Springfield sounds like an ideal start.

    Did you see the thread about j8064's new 61 Springfield reproduction? Beautiful thing, he hasnt had a chance to shoot it yet.

    No, I did not see his reproduction thread.

    I passed up a Springfield Repro at the York show for $600

    I think look for a Brown Bess Repro though for my Revolutionary War curiosity.
    I'll expect a Brown Bess to shoot like a paintball gun at 50 yards though.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,216
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    I have an 1842 Harper’s Ferry. Haven’t looked at it in a while. As I recall, the barrel looks solid, but the nipple is quite corroded. I hadn’t really considered shooting it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    I don't know... never shot a paintball gun. I've heard patched balls do all right out of a smoothbore at close range. N-SSA added smoothbore competition since my day. Those guys would know. N-SSA shoots smoothbores in competition at half the distances they shoot rifled long guns.

    Still, a smoothbore is for buck-and-ball.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I don't know... never shot a paintball gun. I've heard patched balls do all right out of a smoothbore at close range. N-SSA added smoothbore competition since my day. Those guys would know. N-SSA shoots smoothbores in competition at half the distances they shoot rifled long guns.

    Still, a smoothbore is for buck-and-ball.

    Paintball gun will shoot straight for a short distance than curves off in different directions. Kind of like my long game when playing golf.
     
    The Union had Henry rifles also, not many but were the main rifle in some companies.
     

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    Mike OTDP

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2008
    3,318
    I don't know... never shot a paintball gun. I've heard patched balls do all right out of a smoothbore at close range. N-SSA added smoothbore competition since my day. Those guys would know. N-SSA shoots smoothbores in competition at half the distances they shoot rifled long guns.

    A patched round ball will shoot surprisingly straight from a smooth barrel. The MLAIC shooters are getting about 4 inch groups at 50 meters. The N-SSA...they won't allow patched round ball, so the accuracy suffers.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Headed up Sat morning. Planning for the Springfield 1861. Any last advice? anyone know of someone who will have a table I should stop by?
    I'll be monitoring MDS during the show, if you see something I should look at, please PM me.
    (I think I'll also be looking at US Krags)
     

    fred55

    Senior
    Aug 24, 2016
    1,772
    Spotsylvania Co. VA
    I recall my father used a Zouave muzzle loader when he was competing in Civil War era black powder matches back in the 60's and 70's. Cleaning that rifle was a odorous and long project. Drawing the hot water from the nipple to the end on the barrel was rough...
     

    IronEye

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 10, 2018
    790
    Howard County
    Here some general advice. Don't buy the first rifle in your price range that you see. You will lose the occasional bargain but you won't overpay.

    At a show like this you could easily see a rifle that is better than the one you just bought for a couple hundred bucks less.

    Take a notebook and move quickly through the show. Write down anything interesting, it's price and it's location. This could easily take an hour. Make sure you check the table's nooks and crannies.

    Then go back to the interesting guns and take a closer look.

    Doing it this way you'll have a good idea of what prices are like in the entire show and what a fair price is.

    You can often get a bargain if minor parts are incorrect or missing. But some parts can be silly expensive. As an example I picked up a Type 38 Arisaka that was missing the magazine follower. Little did I know that it would take me a good while and $35 to get a replacement. Used to be that this part was less than $10. Not any more. I could have bought a complete gun for less than I spent for gun I got and the missing part and shipping. Not a lot of money but lesson learned.

    Good hunting and have fun!
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Here some general advice. Don't buy the first rifle in your price range that you see. You will lose the occasional bargain but you won't overpay.

    At a show like this you could easily see a rifle that is better than the one you just bought for a couple hundred bucks less.

    Take a notebook and move quickly through the show. Write down anything interesting, it's price and it's location. This could easily take an hour. Make sure you check the table's nooks and crannies.

    Then go back to the interesting guns and take a closer look.

    Doing it this way you'll have a good idea of what prices are like in the entire show and what a fair price is.

    You can often get a bargain if minor parts are incorrect or missing. But some parts can be silly expensive. As an example I picked up a Type 38 Arisaka that was missing the magazine follower. Little did I know that it would take me a good while and $35 to get a replacement. Used to be that this part was less than $10. Not any more. I could have bought a complete gun for less than I spent for gun I got and the missing part and shipping. Not a lot of money but lesson learned.

    Good hunting and have fun!


    Thx for the advice, this is sort of a reminder of how I normally purchase anything more than $300 now a days at a show. I'm past buying anything that needs work which is on my collecting bucket list
     

    noahhh

    Active Member
    Jan 28, 2009
    254
    Arnold,Md
    Here some general advice. Don't buy the first rifle in your price range that you see. You will lose the occasional bargain but you won't overpay.

    At a show like this you could easily see a rifle that is better than the one you just bought for a couple hundred bucks less.

    Take a notebook and move quickly through the show. Write down anything interesting, it's price and it's location. This could easily take an hour. Make sure you check the table's nooks and crannies.

    Then go back to the interesting guns and take a closer look.

    Doing it this way you'll have a good idea of what prices are like in the entire show and what a fair price is.

    You can often get a bargain if minor parts are incorrect or missing. But some parts can be silly expensive. As an example I picked up a Type 38 Arisaka that was missing the magazine follower. Little did I know that it would take me a good while and $35 to get a replacement. Used to be that this part was less than $10. Not any more. I could have bought a complete gun for less than I spent for gun I got and the missing part and shipping. Not a lot of money but lesson learned.

    Good hunting and have fun!

    Good advice re: scouting for a purchase.

    I take along a tiny flashlight to drop down the bore so as to shine back up the length of it to gauge bore condition- a critical protocol if you intend to shoot it occasionally. Look for shininess and pronounced sharp rifling. A few minor pits won't effect safety, fouling, or accuracy. Walk away if the outside of the gun is nice but the bore is a sewer pipe, again if shooting it is your goal.

    Check the "feel" of the lock. It should be snappy in performance, and crisp in falling into half-cock and full-cock notches. Those U.S. locks of the era were quite robust and well made and easy to find one in that condition. If the lock is spongy, again walk away because it is getting worn out and original replacement parts are getting pricey.

    Inspect the nipple/bolster area. Expect some surface pitting/light rust in the $2K price range, but don't settle for one that looks like a relic. Nipples can be replaced if that's the only crappy thing about it. (Soak the Harry out of it with penetrating oil, apply a little heat, and use the proper nipple wrench.)

    Remember that any small parts such as sights, bands, trigger bows, etc. are getting scarce and pricey too.

    For$2K don't expect a perfect stock, but do expect a solid uncracked one that's not spongy or black with oil soak. Hopefully it won't have been sanded in the past. You should at least be able to see faint inspector's marks.

    Metal finish: those guns were polished bright when made so expect them to have a nice even even patina in that price range. If it looks too good/shiny to be true, it probably is. You can find nice shiny original examples of '61's, but not for $2K.

    All in all, $2K should get you a pretty nice example of a '61 Springfield (or contract musket).

    M1842's: Ditto the above.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Picked up an 1863. Most of the Springfields were $3K or more. There were plenty of contract muskets in the same condition as what I got which were $1300-$1600. Bore was pretty good, I rejected buying one that was a sewer pipe and another that looked like someone removed the rifling. 2 of them were sanded down stocks and someone polished the barrels (the trigger guards were not polished). This one was not shiny and bright but seemed like it was unmolested. The other stuff at the guy's table looked unmolested as well. Lock seemed good and the stock was in decent condition.

    Now I need to source out a 58 cal jag tip for my range rod and some minie balls to give it a short range trip.
     

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