Generator for well pump and septic?

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  • 135sohc

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 27, 2013
    1,157
    One of these mounted on your exterior wall and wired correctly into the panel onto the double pole breaker that is situated to interact with the interlock device that prevents that breaker and your Main breaker from both being ON at the same time.

    and your power umbilical cord wired to that plug via the proper female twist lock and the other end with its male end to go to your twist lock receptacle on your generator.

    If done correctly it is physically impossible for a back feed condition or hot plug end/receptacle to be exposed.
     

    Norton

    NRA Endowment Member, Rifleman
    Staff member
    Admin
    Moderator
    May 22, 2005
    122,856
    Then it's not a suicide cord. It works the same way as a transfer switch. It has the added guarantee of a break-before-make switch, but a good interlock can be designed to ensure that as well.

    Not so much when back feeding from the dryer outlet however. It is possible for utility power to be energized the same time as the Genny. There is no mechanical either/or lockout in this case.

    correct on all points. Because the inlet box is a male plug, you use a standard cord to connect.

    And yes, the little piece of sheet metal is nothing more than a mechanical way of making sure that both circuits aren't open at the same time.
     

    Joseph

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 13, 2009
    2,760
    Clinton MD
    Can anyone recommend a good quality small 6-10 kW diesel generator?
    I have my well pump and other essential circuits wired into a sub panel with an interlock and a male receptacle box on the outside of the house for generator hookup. I don’t have a generator yet (I have a small 120V 3600W inverter generator to save the freezer) that can produce 240V for the well pump and other big stuff like the water heater and mini split AC.

    I prefer diesel because I use it more than gasoline which might go stale. A quiet generator is also a high priority. I would also like to keep it under 750lb so I can move it with my forks on the tractor and use it for power in a remote garage. I don’t need automatic startup. I am seriously looking at the Kubota GL7000 or GL10000. The only drawback is the 3600 rpm the engine runs at. Anyone have experience with these or something similar?
     

    delaneyesq

    Member
    Sep 1, 2011
    49
    Amazing Question

    Just yesterday I was researching this. Just bought my first house with a well. Want to be able to get water during extended power outage. Thanks for all the informative replies!
     

    treasurehunter

    Active Member
    Jul 22, 2018
    214
    Look for a good used Onan 10 or 15K. They are real generators that run at 1800 rpm and are built for prime power. I saw a good diesel this week on Facebook marketplace.
    A 28KW nice one on there in North Carolina.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Look for a good used Onan 10 or 15K. They are real generators that run at 1800 rpm and are built for prime power. I saw a good diesel this week on Facebook marketplace.
    A 28KW nice one on there in North Carolina.

    I would love to find a nice diesel Onan genset.

    And put in an ATS, and be done with it.

    I can run it off my fuel oil tank.
     

    sailskidrive

    Legalize the Constitution
    Oct 16, 2011
    5,547
    Route 27
    No one has mentioned Total Harmonic Distortion. Most of the generators mentioned in the thread have a pretty high THD rating of up to 25%. If you have some fancy appliances in the house like a $3k Samsung/LG refrigerator or a newer HVAC system you're going to want a low THD. Some of the newer HVAC furnaces won't even power on with a moderate level of distortion.

    I picked up a Champion 5000/6250 inverter generator on Cyber Monday. It puts out 120/240v so no step up transformer needed for the well and it has a THD of less than 3% so I don't need to worry about frying my wife and MIL's prized refrigerators. We have overhead power lines here so the goal was to be able to run the well, fridge, freezers, and one of the three furnaces in the event of an extended power outage. Personally, I could probably live with out heat in very cold conditions, but being without water when you have a two young kids and MIL in the house could be problematic. We were originally going to have a whole house generator installed, but between the cost of the genset, the electrical work, and running gas lines it was going to be about $10k.

    Before we moved in June I had a Westinghouse 3700/4500 inverter generator that only put out 110v. I wired up a 10 circuit load side transfer switch, which was not difficult. The generator had no problem at all running a large fridge, two chest freezers, gas furnace, and a menagerie of light in the house. Despite my best efforts I couldn't get the load to spike temporarily to more than 3500 watts and about 1400 watts constant draw. I really like that generator, as it was incredibly quiet, if you only need 110v I would definitely recommend one.

    I plan on using two interlock devices this time around as it's a lot less expensive than two $400 load side transfer switches. Something else to keep in mind is that in the past two weeks generators have flown off the shelves, so the inventory is low.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Well pumps are usually 240 volt. Most small generators are 120 volt.

    When I first moved out here with a well, I got a 120 volt to 240 volt step-up transformer so I could use the well pump.

    Then I changed its hard-wiring so it plugged into a 240 volt outlet by the pump wiring in the basement.

    When the power was on, it was plugged into the outlet powering the well pump as before.

    When the power failed, I unplugged it and plugged it into the step-up transformer that was plugged into the little generator.

    I suspect most sump pumps are 120 volt so that should not be a problem.

    Not a great solution but it's what you have to do if you want to use a small generator.

    Eventually I got a bigger generator and now have a whole house generator so I don't have to do anything.

    I mean “little” is relative.

    Other than a “big” RV generator, I’d call any of the 120V only tiny generators. A small one is more like 3-5kw and other than RV specific ones they are mostly 120/240v capable. A medium generator is >5-10kw. Bigger than that is a big residential generator and often fixed.

    Electrician is needed (if you don’t know what you are doing. Suggestion, don’t try to figure it out yourself. One of those “if you have to ask, you don’t have the experience and skill to do it safely”).

    Need a generator hook-up and then a transfer/generator panel or a whole house interlock. The former I had with my last house. The later I installed on my current house. You’ll likely want something at least >3kw output. A typical well pump is in the .75-1.5hp range, but it is going to draw from 2-3x that with current inrush for a couple of seconds before it settles down. That’s 500-1200w running, 1-3.6kw range in rush. If you’ve got a particularly deep well it might be a 2-2.5hp pump (at least central Maryland and east unlikely you’ve got anything bigger than a 1.5hp. I’ve got no clue about well depths in western MD).

    That 1-3.6kw is what you need to compare to the starting load capacity of the generator (that’s the higher figure you’ll see for a generator). Sump pump is going to have similar in-rush of 2-3x, but are generally 1/4-1/2hp pumps. Figure running capacity of one, plus starting of the other as a worse case. Assuming you want to run just those.

    I have a large, but energy efficient house and I can run it on my 3kw running, 3.5kw starting generator. Barely. I have watt meters hooked up in my panel for the generator line.

    Base load is around 300w for my house. Add in about 300w for my oil boiler and circulating pumps. Fridge runs to about 300w when running and around 650 starting for a few seconds. Well pump pulls in about 1300w starting and about 700 running.

    That’s pretty close to 3000w worst case. Of course I can stack on a LOT more power if I want, but that is the minimum I “need”. That doesn’t include my second fridge or chest freezer though which add about 300w for the both of them running. Which puts me over top 3000w worst case. Have not had an occasion to run a generator with this house for more than a couple of hours since we bought it 18 months ago. Has stalled yet.

    I did just get a dual fuel Westinghouse Wgen5300 a few weeks ago. Much more head run as it is 4650w running and 5300w starting on propane and 5300w running and 6100w starting on gas.

    Still can’t run my induction range on it, but I can run my 2000w microwave and coffee pot along with all those other loads I mentioned if mildly cautious in doing it. Much cleaner current also (smaller generator half of my UPS cycle between mains and backup battery and back a couple times a minute because the power isn’t very clean. With the bigger generator they all seem happy. Less harmonic distortion in the wave form).
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Can anyone recommend a good quality small 6-10 kW diesel generator?
    I have my well pump and other essential circuits wired into a sub panel with an interlock and a male receptacle box on the outside of the house for generator hookup. I don’t have a generator yet (I have a small 120V 3600W inverter generator to save the freezer) that can produce 240V for the well pump and other big stuff like the water heater and mini split AC.

    I prefer diesel because I use it more than gasoline which might go stale. A quiet generator is also a high priority. I would also like to keep it under 750lb so I can move it with my forks on the tractor and use it for power in a remote garage. I don’t need automatic startup. I am seriously looking at the Kubota GL7000 or GL10000. The only drawback is the 3600 rpm the engine runs at. Anyone have experience with these or something similar?

    I am glad you clarified on weight for what qualifies as small for you as I am not aware of any diesel generators under about 200. Which is not small and not really man portable in anyway. That’s a fixed unit basically.

    TBH I’d look at a nicer dual fuel generator instead. If you are worried about stale gas or carb gumming up, just run it on propane. A 300# tank can be delivered for a pretty reasonable price. Even with a big house you’d likely be looking at around 2 weeks of use for 300# of propane if you were running the generator 16hrs a day (really no air cooled generator should be run 24/7. Pretty much all residential generators should not be run more than about 16hrs straight before they are given a few hour cool down).

    If you were a bit judicious in the use you could get a couple of months out of that propane tank running it a few hours a day.

    Unless you are running your house on it OFF GRID a diesel generator is a lot of expense, weight and hassle for something you’d likely need a few hours a year. Maybe a few days a year. I guess if money is no object and you want to outfit your bomb shelter for the end of the world.

    There is no such thing is a really quiet generator. An inverter generator under light load is as good as you can get.

    In terms of how loud generators are, it depends on the manufacturer’s design decisions, but generally the higher the output, the louder it is. From there in terms of quietness it is propane is quieter than gasoline which is a lot quieter than diesel. you can build a basic generator shack to really drop the noise level a lot, like an easy halving the volume of more with just a few sheets of plywood to enclose it, but still designed for good airflow (which doesn’t make it quiet, but like push mower quiet rather than riding mower quiet).
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I would love to find a nice diesel Onan genset.

    And put in an ATS, and be done with it.

    I can run it off my fuel oil tank.

    Be careful there where you’d be running the generator. Heating oil has parraffin (sp?). At about 20F it starts to separate out from the oil and form crystals and can cause fuel line blockages. Way worse with a carb. Also heating oil doesn’t have stabilizers in it so it can gum up the carb if it sits as bad or worse than gasoline can.

    PS it is part of the reason residential fuel oil tanks are more often located in your house. Also why in really cold climates people use diesel, not heating oil for furnaces.
     

    135sohc

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 27, 2013
    1,157
    Be careful there where you’d be running the generator. Heating oil has parraffin (sp?). At about 20F it starts to separate out from the oil and form crystals and can cause fuel line blockages. Way worse with a carb. Also heating oil doesn’t have stabilizers in it so it can gum up the carb if it sits as bad or worse than gasoline can.

    PS it is part of the reason residential fuel oil tanks are more often located in your house. Also why in really cold climates people use diesel, not heating oil for furnaces.

    You do know that "heating oil" is essentially just diesel fuel with red dye added for taxing purposes right ? and other than maybe an old farm tractor, diesel engines do not use a carburetor either
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    You do know that "heating oil" is essentially just diesel fuel with red dye added for taxing purposes right ? and other than maybe an old farm tractor, diesel engines do not use a carburetor either

    And about the same as jet fuel.

    Many ag plane turbo props are run on home heating oil. Yes, legally.
     

    boatbod

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 30, 2007
    3,827
    Talbot Co
    Can anyone recommend a good quality small 6-10 kW diesel generator?
    I have my well pump and other essential circuits wired into a sub panel with an interlock and a male receptacle box on the outside of the house for generator hookup. I don’t have a generator yet (I have a small 120V 3600W inverter generator to save the freezer) that can produce 240V for the well pump and other big stuff like the water heater and mini split AC.

    I prefer diesel because I use it more than gasoline which might go stale. A quiet generator is also a high priority. I would also like to keep it under 750lb so I can move it with my forks on the tractor and use it for power in a remote garage. I don’t need automatic startup. I am seriously looking at the Kubota GL7000 or GL10000. The only drawback is the 3600 rpm the engine runs at. Anyone have experience with these or something similar?

    If you already have a diesel tractor with a PTO and 3PT hitch you could get a PTO Generator
     

    Joseph

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 13, 2009
    2,760
    Clinton MD
    If you already have a diesel tractor with a PTO and 3PT hitch you could get a PTO Generator

    I have considered that but I would rather not be putting extra hours on the tractor and it will not be quiet since the tractor will not be running at idle.
    I am looking for a <67 Decibel generator at full load. I think the answer is an 1800rpm unit in an enclosure. The Onan RV generators are nice but very expensive new. The Kubota GL7000 is cheaper and meets my requirements but it runs at 3600rpm and that makes me wonder about longevity. As always there are many factors and some compromises that must be made.
     

    ED302

    Member
    Feb 14, 2020
    10
    A lot of sub-threads in here, but I will give my general thoughts on generators for rare utility backup power for your home, where you may need 240 V to run well sumps and such.

    I am in a "rural residential" area with overhead lines and a well for domestic water. The first winter we were in the house, a nor'easter blew through and took out our power for five days. I had, and still have, a wonderful Honda EU2000 120 V inverter generator. I was able to use a combination of extension cords and popping the front off the breaker panel to wire in the boiler so that I had heat, lights, cold refrigerator, and even WiFi. But no running water since my well pump is 240 V. We do not have natural gas available, so I did not want to have a "whole house" permanently installed generator due to stale fuel concerns. I could have bought a 7kW or so diesel to run off of my oil tank, but the diesels seem to be really loud. I realized that I only needed 240 V for several hours a day for water for showers, cooking, etc. Outside of that, the 120 V Honda runs like a champ, sipping fuel while quiet enough to run all night without waking the neighbors. Because I am comfortable working around electricity, I just installed an outdoor hookup to use with a portable gasoline gen, switched manually. I do manual load shed to stay within the rating of my 5 kW Northern Tool unit. I use a clamp-on ammeter to measure this. Reasonable sound level with the Honda engine. Well under $1000 for everything. I should add that I have an indirect-fired domestic hot water tank attached to my oil-fired boiler, so I do not need much electricity to make hot water.

    This is not what I would recommend for everyone since you are working with lethal voltages, but as I said, I am comfortable working with electricity. I was also trying to avoid dropping thousands of dollars on something I might only use once very other year. If you are not in that same situation, the next step up is a portable generator with a manual transfer switch. I only recommend permanently installed generators for those that have natural gas or propane, want maximum convenience, and are willing to buy service contracts for preventive maintenance.

    Often salespeople will push you towards larger generators, but you have to ask if you really need air-conditioning during a power outage. No hot water may be a bigger deal if you have an electric water heater. If you have a gas water heater, it does not take a whole lot of power to run lights, refrigerator, and occasional cycling of the well sump. It is easy to start checking more boxes, and end up spending $10k. If I had to do it over again, I might consider the manual transfer switch. Not for me, but I do have to travel for work sometimes, and worry about how my wife would handle things without me there.

    So, the things I recommend people to consider are what do you REALLY need to run, how painful is it to be without power during an outage, how likely are outages, and how much do you want to spend. Think very carefully on these points before spending money. Due to the utility spending more on line maintenance in recently, we have not had an outage that lasted more than several hours in years.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    What I have is a Honda 6500 watt water cooled generator. I was away during the week of Floyd in the late 90s, came home to know power. Neighbors said BGE was saying 7 - 10 days for us to get power. I called Pete's in Bel Air and they had 1 - 1000 watt and 2 - 6500 watt, one water cooled, one air cooled. I bought the water cooled one.

    I installed a connector box off the panel and feed that panel through that. I know the risks and triple check that the main breaker is off. At some point, I will install one of the interlocks, but it will take some rewiring.

    I use, I turn off the main and ALL individual beakers. I hook up the generator, double check that the main breaker is off, then turn on the breaker from the connector box. Then check the main breaker again, and then start the generator. I then turn on the circuits I want to power.

    Most times, I power the well pump, the freezers and fridge, the kitchen (includes the fridge), and some lights. I run it about 2 - 3 hours in the morning (get up, use bathroom and flush, make some coffee and breakfast, have lights, cool down the fridge freezers). And again 2 - 3 hours in the evening (fix dinner, have some light when it gets dark).

    Every couple of days or so, I run only the water heater to heat it up. There is enough hot water to wash dishes and take a quick shower for a couple of days. When the hot water is barely warm, I run the water heater again.

    This has worked well since the late 90s. Most cases, the power was on in a day or two. Longest was about 5 years.

    BTW, the incident which caused me to buy the generator, we had power back in about 48 - 55 hours. Did not loose any food in the freezers.
     

    Joseph

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 13, 2009
    2,760
    Clinton MD
    Great points ED302
    I am in an almost identical situation as you as far as the RR zone, above ground power and home utility equipment. I have lost power for probably less than 12hrs over the last 6-7 years so it does pain me to consider spending a lot on a genny. I do think that I have been lucky though and that is bound to run out.
    I can keep my freezers and heat on with quiet the little 3.5kW inverter generator but the thing that troubles me the most is the water. When I did loose power for days maybe 9 years or so ago the lack of being able to shower after getting sweaty and filthy cleaning up after the storm was quite miserable.
    I am trying to justify the expense by considering that I could also use it to power a future detached shop/garage on my property. Also, as I get older roughing it is less and less appealing. Lots to think about but I am not in a hurry.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    You do know that "heating oil" is essentially just diesel fuel with red dye added for taxing purposes right ? and other than maybe an old farm tractor, diesel engines do not use a carburetor either

    It is not. Completely different molecule and caloric content.

    Gasoline is a shorter hydrocarbon chain to diesel. Diesel is a shorter hydrocarbon chain to heating oil. Heating oil can be used in a Diesel engine. So can cooking oil. Cooking oil also gets thick at cold temps and doesn’t flow properly.

    Generators sure use carburetors. I am sure there are probably some modern diesel generators that are fuel injected.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Full load under 67dB? At what distance (I forget the relaxed testing values generator makers use, like 30ft I think).

    Pretty sure you won’t get that. Generally quoted values are idle. That’s how inverter generators are so quiet. Because it is idle volume quoted and they can idle down. Sure if you are usually running really light load an inverter generator is very quiet. But they are basically just as noisy under heavy load.

    Probably not even with an enclosure, not with any diesel anyway, are you going to get that quiet. Maybe if you built an honest to goodness generator shack with sound deadening and proper intake and exhaust air for it.

    Propane you might with an enclosure and an aftermarket muffler you’d probably get under that at 30ft.

    IMHO unless you really need reliable long term power you are going massively overkill.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    It is not. Completely different molecule and caloric content.

    Gasoline is a shorter hydrocarbon chain to diesel. Diesel is a shorter hydrocarbon chain to heating oil. Heating oil can be used in a Diesel engine. So can cooking oil. Cooking oil also gets thick at cold temps and doesn’t flow properly.

    Generators sure use carburetors. I am sure there are probably some modern diesel generators that are fuel injected.

    We are not talking about gasoline versus diesel/heating oil.

    Number 2 fuel oil is a distillate home heating oil. This fuel is sometimes known as Bunker A. Trucks and some cars use similar diesel fuel with a cetane number limit describing the ignition quality of the fuel. Both are typically obtained from the light gas oil cut.

    Name Alias Alias Type Chain length
    No. 1 fuel oil No. 1 distillate No. 1 Diesel fuel Distillate 9-16
    No. 2 fuel oil No. 2 distillate No. 2 Diesel fuel Distillate 10-20

    Most heating oil products are chemically very similar to diesel fuel used as motor fuel. In many markets heating oil and on-road diesel fuels are the same product sold out of the same truck in route labeled as either heating oil or dyed diesel respectively dependent on the person ordering product. The legal difference between diesel and heating oil in the United States is sulfur allowance.

    According to this, the main difference is the sulfur content - https://hbsteeleoil.com/key-differe...sel-fuel-on-road-diesel-fuel-in-pennsylvania/

    Heating oil is diesel fuel. It is dyed red to indicate that it is not legal to burn in a diesel vehicle because the red dye indicates that there were no road taxes paid with it.
     

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