Would Private Firearm Instruction be a problem?

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  • mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    You might want to direct that question to the NRA and let us know what they say.

    As long as you can get 4 individuals together, you can offer the class.

    I know I and other instructors have conducted classes during the weekdays (or over several evenings). As far as I know, the NRA allows for flexibility in times/places. The NRA places emphasis on teaching in teams and having students act as "coach/pupil". Having four students allows for changing teams for various drills.
     

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    As long as you can get 4 individuals together, you can offer the class.

    I know I and other instructors have conducted classes during the weekdays (or over several evenings). As far as I know, the NRA allows for flexibility in times/places. The NRA places emphasis on teaching in teams and having students act as "coach/pupil". Having four students allows for changing teams for various drills.

    That does not answer the question that was asked because you have first steps classes that none of what you just said would apply to. As a matter of fact it limits you to four students per instructor. I don't recall my instructor manual saying anything about the number of students that were required per class but I will review it again, or if you could refer me to the page that lists that requirement it would be helpful.
     

    parbreak

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 18, 2008
    1,070
    I always thought the FIRST Steps was designed to be one on one instruction or very small group in which the student was instructed on one specific firearm model.
     

    mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    I stand by my answer. I, too, offer F.I.R.S.T. Steps classes as 'one on one' because the class material works well for teaching a new shooter about a particular firearm.

    In reviewing my copy of the BIT and Training Counselor manual, I have notes concerning the comments made by my Training Counselor Workshop mentors about the desire to have a minimum of four students. I even have a string of e-mails between several Senior Training Counselors, NRA training folks and myself regarding class sizes (especially in regard to when to cancel a BASIC class) and again the consensus is 4. While the BIT and the TC Guide do not formally state a number, it seems that there is consensus that four is good number.

    I have discussed this with several other TCs and even other instructors and have found it fairly consistent from thier experiences. I have several e-mails from my TCW mentors warning me never to offer an NRA Instructor class with less than four candidates. I can clearly understand the reasoning for a minimum of 4 for instructor classes.

    So, I apologize for overstating the minimum of 4 students in order to conduct a BASIC class. Personally, I stay with that number based upon what I was taught in my Training Counselor Workshop. As for private instruction, as the BIT and Training Guide both state, as long as you follow the NRA curriculum you will be okay (i.e. present the material in full). What the NRA wants to avoid is any training be given under the guise of being NRA sanctioned but not using NRA materials.

    Many of us offer private classes but are careful to use courses of fire and written materials that do not incorporate or allude to the NRA in any way. Being an NRA certified instructor does not prohibit offering private lessons or courses but an NRA certified instructor needs to distinguish his/her class from the ones offered as NRA approved.

    In any case, I am going to ask for clarification from the NRA once again as it is a topic that comes up in my NRA instructor classes from time to time.
     

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    I would absolutely agree with you in regards to an instructor class, but I have never heard of the NRA stating that four students was required to give a class nor that private NRA classes were frowned upon as stated in your first post. Thank you for the clarification as I do give private NRA classes every once in a while but mainly they are first step.

    As far as having a consensus between training counselors or instructors go, that doesn't make it a rule or a policy, that just makes it an opinion. :)

    Mikec, hope that helps answer the question that the NRA DOES NOT restrict an instructor from giving an NRA class to one student at a time.
     

    Fire-4-Effect

    Active Member
    Aug 3, 2008
    658
    Frederick, Md
    Guys,

    As a training counselor my job is to carry the NRA's water and make sure the instructors that I certify know exactly what their responsibilities are as NRA instructors. I can tell you without any reservation that YOU MUST HAVE 4 STUDENTS PER CLASS. This was told to me directly by two of the people working in the training department at the NRA that now teach training counselor workshops.

    For a long time the NRA would allow master / senior training counselors to teach new training counselors. No more. They are doing away with the "master" and "senior" training counselor ranking and from now on the NRA staff will be teaching training counselor workshops.

    When I took my training counselor workshop this issue of the number of students was debated heavily with the staff from the NRA training department. They said bottom line: A minimum of 4 students is required. They said that they are going to start enforcing this and that instructors who do one-on-one's will start getting calls from the NRA about the need to stop this practice.

    So, you can debate it here until the cows come home but it will not change the fact that ALL classes must have a minimum of 4 students. I would never teach a class with less that that as I would be afraid of having my credentials pulled (They will do this). In fact, they recently went through and "cleaned house" on a lot of older credentials that had no teaching activity and problem instructors from my understanding.

    The other thing to keep in mind is the importance of sticking to the lesson plans. If you deviate from the lesson plans you are no longer teaching an NRA sanctioned class and no longer have their protection in the event someone sues you. If you follow the lesson plans then the NRA will back you 100%. Also, keep in mind you should still have your own insurance as an instructor.

    Lastly, because of the sheer number of instructors and the fact that there are less than 12 people working in the training department they also recognize that they do not / will not have time to answer everyone's question. The way you are supposed to get a question answered is through the training counselor that YOU got your certifications from. Or other training counselors like mcbruzdzinski and myself.

    You have to understand that they want to foster teaching teams that stick together and contain a training counselor. The training counselor is who you turn to for answers. If he does not know he will ask the NRA training department but he should have the answer to 99% of the questions if he knows what he is doing.

    Thanks

    Phil
     

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    Phil, you know I have the utmost respect for you but I would ask you to direct me to the page or rule that states what you are saying specifically. Heck, forward an e-mail even that is from the NRA that states this to be policy and where they list this policy.

    I do not appreciate anyone passing along an opinion and stating it to be a fact, you are training counselors and not the NRA, you are an ambassador for them as am I. As such we must pass along the rules and conduct ourselves as professionals when teaching an NRA class. This does not include passing on bad information or opinion from a coffee circle, there is no room for the passing of bad info because someone said it, lets see it in writing.

    I do not say this to start an argument but this is about the same as saying that you can't have a loaded handgun magazine in your car and saying it is law, when we all know it isn't, it is just bad info being passed around the coffee circle. I want to see this as well so I do not violate NRA policy as I have worked very hard to obtain the instructor certifications that I have and do not want to violate a rule and lose those certifications. So please direct me to something in writing or stop passing bad information.
     
    Last edited:

    parbreak

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 18, 2008
    1,070
    Hi Phil,

    I don't know you personally, but have heard good things from other Instructors, and certainly respect the fact you have been appointed by the NRA as a TC, something that is getting harder to do all the time.

    I do have to take STRONG exception to your statement:

    "that ALL classes must have a minimum of 4 students"

    I am looking at my NRA Basic Shooting Course outline and lessons plans as I am typing this and in the Introduction section under Total Participant Involvement (TPI) section it clearly states:

    "The FIRST Steps Program is designed for a low participant-to-instructor ration. The three-hour orientation length is based on a ratio of one-to-one. "
    Given that statement clearly written in the instructor's manual, one would have to have 4 instructors present in order to do a FIRST Steps class. Not practical
    and never going to happen.

    I see no where in that book where it states that a minimum of 4 students must participate to provide a FIRST Steps class. I have been providing FIRST Steps classes for 1-4 (maximum of 4) students for years and it has NEVER come into question by my TC or the NRA. And I do refer and seek guidance from the TC(s) quite often as I am lucky to have access to 2 great TC(s), one of which is a regular participant on this board.

    While I respect your opinion that 4 is possibly an optimum number, please refer to the NRA written policy so that I and other instructors may align ourselves and abide by that written policy rather than conjecture.


    Sincerely,
    Bryan Fletcher
    Mid-Atlantic Firearms Training
     
    Last edited:

    Fire-4-Effect

    Active Member
    Aug 3, 2008
    658
    Frederick, Md
    3rdRcn and parbreak,

    No worries... I did not mean to offend. What I was told came from Andy and Sean at the NRA training department. They work directly for Mark Richardson. My master training counselor told me the same thing.

    I will give the NRA a call Monday to inquire further. Our TC workshop debated this for a good 30 minutes with the guys from NRA HQ. Maybe I mus-understood, do not think so but it would not be the first time I made a mistake... :-)

    I may also post to the NRA instructor forum for further clarification.

    I have the utmost respect for you guys and will take the time to find out. Sorry for this being posted so late.

    Thanks

    Phil
     

    mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    Guys,

    As a training counselor my job is to carry the NRA's water and make sure the instructors that I certify know exactly what their responsibilities are as NRA instructors. I can tell you without any reservation that YOU MUST HAVE 4 STUDENTS PER CLASS. This was told to me directly by two of the people working in the training department at the NRA that now teach training counselor workshops.

    For a long time the NRA would allow master / senior training counselors to teach new training counselors. No more. They are doing away with the "master" and "senior" training counselor ranking and from now on the NRA staff will be teaching training counselor workshops.


    Phil


    I was told the same thing in my TC class and I had about 1/3 of the entire NRA Training staff in my class as observers (Mark Richardson, Andy Lander, John Howard and Steve Hoback).

    I have sent an e-mail to John Howard to get clarification. My feeling is that it is a 'unwritten guideline' that we as instructors should strive to reach.
     

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    I'm kinda wondering if this may have been misunderstood to be no more than 4 students per instructor, which is logical considering the course curriculum. I am a firm believer that 4 students per instructor is too many to give them enough personal attention but is adequate for safety purposes.

    I personally believe that during live fire exercises any more than 2 students per instructor in an advanced class or 1 per instructor in a basic class is short changing the students.
     

    mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    I'm kinda wondering if this may have been misunderstood to be no more than 4 students per instructor, which is logical considering the course curriculum. I am a firm believer that 4 students per instructor is too many to give them enough personal attention but is adequate for safety purposes.

    I personally believe that during live fire exercises any more than 2 students per instructor in an advanced class or 1 per instructor in a basic class is short changing the students.

    I agree about the instructor/student ratio, especially during live fire.

    As I said before, my notes from my TC class have the notation for the '4 students minimum' in the section on planning a class and again in another section related to ordering supplies.

    I want to get a ruling on this from the NRA folks as it seems that a lot of TCs are being told the same thing but it is not written in the BIT. Of course, the BIT still states to use the course report forms and to order forms using the mail in form!

    In any case, we will get this matter resolved.
     

    mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    I think I find the root of the problem.

    NRA Instructor courses are discipline specific. Part one of any NRA instructor course is NRA Basic Instructor Training (BIT), utilizing the NRA Trainer’s Guide. During this portion, Training Counselors will teach NRA policies and procedures, basic public speaking skills, training methodology, use of a training team and training aids, organizing a course, preparing a budget, and finally preparing to teach. The BIT is followed by part two, discipline specific training and will be five to 16 additional hours, depending on the discipline. During this portion, Training Counselors will provide the appropriate lesson plans and basic course student packets, as well as appropriate training aids to assist instructor candidates in role playing as NRA Certified Instructors. Since role playing is a major part of an instructor course, Training Counselors should ensure there are at least four candidates in every course, with 10 –12 candidates being ideal. Training Counselors must take full advantage of the many break-out exercises so candidates can take turns working in teams, actually conducting portions of the course to other candidates who play the role as basic students

    I found it in the new NRA Trainer Counselor Guide, page A-13 revision 01-10.

    I still have an e-mail to the NRA Training folks to see if there is not an underlying desire to move it down to the NRA Basic courses.
     

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