Transferring Antique Firearms

Question for the group. I should probably know the answer... but I don't. In the event that the bill to treat the transfer of Antique (pre-1899) firearms as if they were modern, passes this year, I would want to try and transfer some of my old guns to my daughter before it takes effect. I know that you can only transfer long-guns to someone who is 18 or older and handguns to someone who is 21 or older, but my question is does this apply to antique arms and/or black powder replicas?

She is 17 soon so I can't transfer any modern arms to her yet, but was wondering if I could do it with some antiques while those transfers are still legal. I of course, would still keep them locked up until she was an adult, but was thinking of establishing a paper trail so that she could actually have them when the time was right without going through FFL transfers. Thoughts?

Antiques, 1898 and older, are not considered firearms by the ATF. They're treated like golf clubs or baseball bats. I would think they could be transferred to anyone at any age. Within reason of course. In my opinion, 17 is within reason. But there may be state laws involved. As in: If it can take powder and projectile and go boom, it's a firearm. It's the same law/reason why we can't carry cap-n-ball revolvers for self protection in Maryland.

There is a funky little catch in the "Antique" law wording. It talks about antiques not being antiques if "Modern Ammunition" is readily available.

This is why some folks won't sell Trapdoors and Krags, of any year, as antiques. Because there is still plenty of ammo being produced. Folks like to argue the antique/modern ammo scenario and I'm not trying to open a can of worms.

Honestly, your best bet would be to place a call to the ATF and pick there brains. If they can furnish you with a letter, you'd be golden.


PS: If I'm not mistaken, I believe there's a carve-out in the new BS law for family members who want/need to transfer long guns and antiques.

If it's pre-1899, then it's automatically an antique firearm (as long as it doesn't fall under an NFA definition like a pre-1899 Maxim gun), conventional cartridge ammo bearing or not. The thing about obsolete ammo is if it is post-1898.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2012-title18/html/USCODE-2012-title18-partI-chap44-sec921.htm

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

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iH8DemLibz said:

Antiques, 1898 and older, are not considered firearms by the ATF. They're treated like golf clubs or baseball bats. I would think they could be transferred to anyone at any age. Within reason of course. In my opinion, 17 is within reason. But there may be state laws involved. As in: If it can take powder and projectile and go boom, it's a firearm. It's the same law/reason why we can't carry cap-n-ball revolvers for self protection in Maryland.

There is a funky little catch in the "Antique" law wording. It talks about antiques not being antiques if "Modern Ammunition" is readily available.

This is why some folks won't sell Trapdoors and Krags, of any year, as antiques. Because there is still plenty of ammo being produced. Folks like to argue the antique/modern ammo scenario and I'm not trying to open a can of worms.

Honestly, your best bet would be to place a call to the ATF and pick there brains. If they can furnish you with a letter, you'd be golden.


PS: If I'm not mistaken, I believe there's a carve-out in the new BS law for family members who want/need to transfer long guns and antiques.

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Thanks... good suggestion. Even if MD does ban the private transfer of these come October (and I hope to God it doesn't), it should still be OK in the rest of America, so I could conceivably just do it out at our WV cabin and write up a "bill of sale" that records the location, and then she could take them home.

Why does Annapolis have to F-up everything? Sigh.

Doctor_M said:

Thanks... good suggestion. Even if MD does ban the private transfer of these come October (and I hope to God it doesn't), it should still be OK in the rest of America, so I could conceivably just do it out at our WV cabin and write up a "bill of sale" that records the location, and then she could take them home.

Why does Annapolis have to F-up everything? Sigh.

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It's simple.

They view gun owners as being lower than whale sh!t and they will take every opportunity to p!ss on our gun clinging way of life.

What Ken792 said ! The " commonly available fixed ammunition " test only applies to REPLICAs . Chronological Antiques are always Antique ( barring NFA issues).

For examples :

1873 mfg Colt SAA in .45Colt = Antique.
Exact replica 1st Gen BP frame mfg by Uberti in .45Colt = Modern

1872 mfg Colt Factory Mason-Richards conversion = Antique.
Uberti 1872 Open Top in .44Colt or .38Long = Modern.
Hypothetical Uberti 1872 :-) Open Top, chambered in .44Rimfire = Antique.


You might think noboby in modern times would mfg a gun for which ammo is unavailable, but its happened, not that long ago.

At least for a time, replica Henry rifles ( Italian Replicas of the 1860 design, not the modern ones mfg in Brooklyn) were offered in the original rimfire, in addition to .38spl,.44-40, etc. In addition at least for a while replica Spencers were offered in original cal in addition to ( various modern-ish cals).

Pre 1899 centerfires are not antique according to 18 U.S. Code § 921. Centerfire primers are certainly not similar to match/flint/percussion. Is there another official ATF ruling that someone can cite that helps us out better?
"(16) The term “antique firearm” means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

ww2 said:

Pre 1899 centerfires are not antique according to 18 U.S. Code § 921. Centerfire primers are certainly not similar to match/flint/percussion. Is there another official ATF ruling that someone can cite that helps us out better?
"(16) The term “antique firearm” means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

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Yes they are. It says "including" to mention that muzzleloaders are not subject to the 1898 thing. Cartridge bearing firearms are antiques if pre-1899 (unless NFA).

A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

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Ken,
Thanks for your reply. I don't know why on Earth they would add/specify more antiquated forms of ignition? It makes it sound as though those are the only types that are allowed. Why not just say firearms made in or before 1898 and leave it at that? I'll have to chalk it up to human mistake. Muzzleloaders are already specifically covered in section C.

ww2 said:

Ken,
Thanks for your reply. I don't know why on Earth they would add/specify more antiquated forms of ignition? It makes it sound as though those are the only types that are allowed. Why not just say firearms made in or before 1898 and leave it at that? I'll have to chalk it up to human mistake. Muzzleloaders are already specifically covered in section C.

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Folks need to be aware that MD state law re antiques is different than federal law. Here is the federal definition of Antique firearm, found in 18 USC 921(a)(16).

(16) The term “antique firearm” means--

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica--

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subpara- graph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiv- er, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Now, contrast that definition with antique firearm found in the MD Code, Criminal Law, Section 4-201:

(b) “Antique firearm” means:

(1) a firearm, including a firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system, manufactured before 1899; or

(2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that:

(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Notice anything? The federal definition and the State definition match up to a point, but the federal definition goes on to expressly include (in "C") black powder muzzle loading guns while the state definition does not.

This means that the federal exclusion of "firearms" from regulation is broader than the State's exclusion of firearms from regulation. Remember, firearms is a defined term in MD:

IN MD, under MD Code, Public Safety, § 5-101(h)(1) "Firearm" means:
(i) a weapon that expels, is designed to expel, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; or
(ii) the frame or receiver of such a weapon.
(2) "Firearm" includes a starter gun.

Therefore, any regulations applying to "firearms" in MD, would include any modern muzzle loader that was not a true antique (made before 1899) or a replica of the antique, as defined. Lots of modern muzzle loaders out there that are not replicas of guns made before 1899.

As always, esqappellate, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you!

Funny how I always learn something new every time I get on here....

DivingDriver said:

Funny how I always learn something new every time I get on here....

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MDS Rocks.... more to the point, the PEOPLE on MDS Rock.

ww2 said:

Pre 1899 centerfires are not antique according to 18 U.S. Code § 921. Centerfire primers are certainly not similar to match/flint/percussion. Is there another official ATF ruling that someone can cite that helps us out better?
"(16) The term “antique firearm” means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

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I"m not exactly following you, once you satisfy 16a (such as in or before 1898), you don't need to go any further. because it says "or".

And for MD 4-201, once you satisfy b1, your done.

centerfire pre 1899 satisfies those and have been sold as antique for a long time. If I have this wrong, so do MANY people going to the antique shows.

Here's A Quote From The BATF

"This is in reply to your letter dated December 5, 1997, in which you ask about antique firearms.
The term antique firearm is defined in 18 USC, Chapter 44, Section 921 (a) (16) as:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and
(B) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Based on the above, any firearm manufactured prior to the year 1899 is an antique firearm for the purposes of the cited chapter." (emphasis added)

(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch.

Resurrecting this thread.

Does the new long gun transfer law apply to an antique shotgun made pre 1899? I don't think it can be fired but I wanted to know the legality of selling an old Belgian wall hanger.

Bountied said:

Resurrecting this thread.

Does the new long gun transfer law apply to an antique shotgun made pre 1899? I don't think it can be fired but I wanted to know the legality of selling an old Belgian wall hanger.

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No, if the gun was made in 1898 or before it’s an antique and face to face sale is still ok in Maryland.

When I was 17 I bought a 22 pistol from a neighbor. The background check consisted of him asking me if my Mother was OK with me buying it. I said yes. Background check completed. Things were simpler then.

iH8DemLibz said:

Antiques, 1898 and older, are not considered firearms by the ATF. They're treated like golf clubs or baseball bats. I would think they could be transferred to anyone at any age. Within reason of course. In my opinion, 17 is within reason. But there may be state laws involved. As in: If it can take powder and projectile and go boom, it's a firearm. It's the same law/reason why we can't carry cap-n-ball revolvers for self protection in Maryland.

There is a funky little catch in the "Antique" law wording. It talks about antiques not being antiques if "Modern Ammunition" is readily available.

This is why some folks won't sell Trapdoors and Krags, of any year, as antiques. Because there is still plenty of ammo being produced. Folks like to argue the antique/modern ammo scenario and I'm not trying to open a can of worms.

Honestly, your best bet would be to place a call to the ATF and pick there brains. If they can furnish you with a letter, you'd be golden.


PS: If I'm not mistaken, I believe there's a carve-out in the new BS law for family members who want/need to transfer long guns and antiques.

Click to expand...

About 30 years ago I ran into this with a freshly-printed C&R FFL the ink was barely dried on and an online seller of some great repute by buying a dozen firearms which did NOT use “commercially available ammunition” like .44-40, .45-70 and other such (NOT Colt .45 which, even the guy taking the order said was still being manufactured), although they WERE modern Uberti, Armi San Marco guns.

Wasn’t until I went to place a second order about a year later some quick on the ball secretary had noted my FFL was a Class 03, not a Class 01. I thought I’d made that clear a year earlier.

Not my paperwork problem, I’d logged them into my bound book, not sure what THEY did about it but they’re still in business, so the log books aren’t in the hands of F-troop (yet, maybe).

They did make it clear though, “NO GUNS FOR YOU!”