a few reloading questions

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  • Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    If the primers will not seat flush with moderate pressure, something is wrong. I would mic the primer pocket depth to see if they were made too shallow. There are tools to fix this.

    If you have a couple of rounds with high primers, I would pull the bullet, remove the powder (save), and try seating the primer again. You may have just not pushed enough for those rounds. If the primer fully seats, you can put the powder and bullet back in. Best would be to neck size the case to ensure proper next tension.

    someting is wrong as mentioned,,if they won't seat flush or below.
    now I'm assuming here (we all know what this means) you have fired these
    cases from "new factory" ammo and NOT range pickup? Also what's the
    headstamp on these? Large primer / Small primer (just gotta ask) If the
    primers are the correct ones, you have "mic'd" the pocket depth with either
    a "depth gauge or caliper" and that is fine, then the "pockets" may be tight
    and may require more effort to seat them, but don't get to carried away
    and "flatten" them too much. this would be where a hand primer would
    come in handy, so you can "feel" the primer seating or not.

    Hand primer tools range from cheap modest price to down right expensive,
    what you choose to use is your choice and what works for you. There will
    be opinons, suggestions, etc.

    Been using the "old" Lee autoprime, round trays for years, picked up a few
    from "Fleabay" (Ebay) as backups, have the Sinclair, RCBS universal but
    somehow go back to the Autoprimes..
    one other thing if you resized these from fired cases looking at the old
    primers that were removed, see if anything looks different from your
    normal expended primers from other deprimed cases of a different caliber,
    just tossing things out there..

    -Rock
     

    OLM-Medic

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 5, 2010
    6,588
    So I think the problem was that I just wasn't seating them very firmly. My bench was kind of wobbly and once I got things sturdy and firm, they now feel pretty flush to the finger test.

    I did notice they still measure slightly longer after priming. I had measuring brass at 1.918 for my inspection, but some of the primed brass now measures 1.920 even though it feels flush to me.

    Just wondering if this is of any concern since max OAL is 1.920
     
    Last edited:

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    Are you using an analog or digital caliper? I think something has to be wrong with your measurements. 87 thousandths difference is insane. Most large rifle primers are about 120 thousandths tall. That means you would be seeing more than 3/4's of the primer out the head of the cartridge. You'd probably be able to pick it out with your fingers!
     

    OLM-Medic

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 5, 2010
    6,588
    Did you take your initial brass measurements before or after you sized it?

    After sizing.

    Out of curiosity I re-measured after seating the primer and it was slightly longer. So it can't be exactly flush, though it feels like it. Just curious if this is any concern or if I should just go with my original measured OAL.
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    Sounds to me like your primer is still not fully seated. A fully seated primer should be just below flush. The case is not going to change its length as part of receiving a primer, so any growth in your measurement is either a primer that is not below flush or your measurement is not accurate.

    If you're absolutely certain you got it in there good, then you may have to check the primer pocket and clean/uniform it.
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    Sounds to me like your primer is still not fully seated. A fully seated primer should be just below flush. The case is not going to change its length as part of receiving a primer, so any growth in your measurement is either a primer that is not below flush or your measurement is not accurate.

    If you're absolutely certain you got it in there good, then you may have to check the primer pocket and clean/uniform it.

    ^^^ agreed....
    the "case length" will not change, when a primer is added, OAL length
    will because if the primer not flush or below as mentioned.do you have
    picz of the primer pocket? visual inspection, what's in the way?
    What's the headstamp on the brass?? I've never had this problem
    in the 45+ years of reloading, if they didn't sit flush, the pockets were
    dirty or something was in the way ie: crimp not removed completely,
    tumbling media, and if you wet tumble a steel pin may be in the way.

    https://ballistictools.com/articles/primer-pocket-depth-and-diameter.php
    http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

    get a depth gauge, measaure the depth of the pocket.
    Uniform the pockets and see what happens
    tools....
    http://www.xxicsi.com/primer-pocket-uniformer.html
    https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/6249483001/k-and-m-primer-pocket-correction-tool


    -Rock
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    I see some of this is already addressed and I am not contradicting above posts, but elaborating and clarifying some of the concepts below.
    The reason for case trimming is to prevent over pressure from a long case neck jamming into the rifling the end of the chamber....
    FIFY. The case is nowhere near the rifling, but IS near the end of the chamber that forms a ledge similar to that in a crimp die. Allowing the case to increase in length enough to hit that provides an unexpected crimp and causes potentially dangerous pressure excursions.
    A few more questions

    1) primers are supposed to be flush. I had one that's obviously too far out. What should I do with it?
    Seat it flush.
    2) just how flush do they need to be? I have one that's maybe just barely noticeably sticking out. I mean you can barely visually see it. Not sure how much this matters
    Asking "How flush?" is like asking "How pregnant?"...

    The normal seating depth for primers is 0.002"-0.003" BELOW the case head, and without looking, I believe up to 0.005" below is permissible.

    For very basic function (goes BOOM!), flush is probably enough, but being seating correctly is critical in several contexts:

    a) We need to consider safety first - as you note, there is a possibility of a slam fire in certain circumstances if the primer projects above the case head.

    b) Then we have mechanical reliability, in that high primers can cause difficulty chambering. If you have worked to reduce your excessive shoulder setback in your die adjustment, then your clearances are closing up and you will begin to notice chambering resistance in a bolt gun.

    c) Then we have consistent ignition. In a long range cartridge like the 6.5 CM, this is very important, because we have to eliminate all potential causes of the velocity variations that start to show more and more vertical stringing as we increase ranges.

    If we use a portion of the striker's spring energy to seat the primer (necessary before ignition can occur), then we will use less than 100% to initiate the primer. I have seen high primers cause misfires on the first shot attempt, needing to be struck again after the first impact fully seated them. Even if they do fire, if we use less than 100% of our striker force, we have lost control over exactly how much we are applying. The nature of the benchrest techniques of cutting primer pockets and reaming flash holes are designed to provide the most consistent ignition possible.

    As far as solving the problem, there can be several issues and these are discussed above.

    The very first thing I would suggest is that you are not using enough pressure. If your primer pockets are clean, the primer should have no problem bottoming out. I could not find the comment that it was new brass or had been fired. New brass can be very tight, and in any case, large rifle primers will be noticeably harder to seat than small rifle primers. One cannot really compare the force necessary to seat large and small primers, especially in new brass vs used.

    It could be that you are being a little timid and just not applying enough pressure. I use the RCBS hand priming tool and find it gives me a good feel for when the primer bottoms out. There is a definite stopping point. As you apply pressure, the primer starts into the primer pocket, and resistance increases as more of the primer cup engages the primer pocket walls. It can be easy to mistake this increasing pressure as being finished, but it you don't feel it STOP against solid resistance, the primer is not fully seated.

    The object of primer seating is to place the primer in the bottom of the primer pocket and then preload the anvil legs slightly to ensure the pellet of priming compound is under pressure. Read this again. Good. Now you know that primers that are not bottomed out are not firing as consistently as they could be, if they fire at all.

    I realize primers are the only explosive component and there are quite a few admonishments out there to treat them very gently. This is good advice, but primers are IMPACT initiated and not delicate little flowers that are sensitive to slowly being mashed. I have literally torn primers in half with my Dillon 650 when they misfeed without getting any detonations. I have pressed them so tightly into cases with a press that you can see the tool marks on the priming punch impressed into the face of the primer cup.

    Try more pressure.

    If more pressure still doesn't work, then there is a mechanical problem.
    Is the priming punch too short?
    Is the priming tool or system working correctly?
    Are the cases to spec, meaning are the primer pockets full depth and reasonably square at the bottom corners?
    Are the pockets actually clean?
    Have the cases had primers seated correctly in them before (as in "by the factory")?
    3) If you can't find data for a specific bullet, internet says you can use something similar right? For example...no data to be found on 140gr, but there's data on a 142gr. Or for example...no data on ELD bullet but use AMAX data for same weight. Is all this ok?
    First, let's consider the basic nature of reloading data books.

    Just like auto dealers invest in service departments to sell cars, bullet and powder makers invest in books to sell components. It is an expense and complication that doesn't render direct profit, but does promote profit making sales. It is a necessary evil and not the end product. They didn't open a dealership so they could change your oil.

    When books publish maximum loads, they are simply showing their maximum load tested in their specific test rig with their specific components, which may or may not be the product of exhaustive testing...

    Since our rig is not their test rig, there can be differences in load tolerance, even if you used their components in your rig. Because their lot of bullets, brass, powder and primers is not the same lot you are using, their can be differences in pressures, even if you used the same test rig.

    Because of these very basic and substantial differences, handloading manuals are simply guidelines and NOT gospel. It is very important to embrace this fact.

    To further complicate matters, their "maximum load tested" is not always the absolute maximum pressure, it is only the maximum load tested. There are examples of this "maximum" load being the stopping point for reasons besides pressure limits. They may have had a limited supply of that powder type. Performance may have been marginal and not worth pursuing further. Powders on either end of the too fast/too slow spectrum can be shown as a convenience, but not taken to pressure limits for one reason or another. Case capacity may have become an issue and loads were considered too compressed, so they stopped. I'm sure the list of variables goes on and on....

    Because of the many potential differences, we never assume that their maximum load is our maximum load. This works both ways. Our rifle and component set may show high pressures before we reach "book max", or we may be able to safely exceed what the books shows.

    It simply comes down to a crap shoot and because of this potential to go either way, we will ALWAYS start well below listed maximum loads. 10% is considered safe and customary, so with a cartridge like the 6.5 CM, with its 40-45 grain load, we'd start around 4 grains light and carefully approach maximum. All I ever do is load one round of each increment, about 1/2 grain apart, and shoot the series until I start to see pressure signs. This provides me a quick and safe way to find out where I'm headed. Once I see where maximum for my rig and components is, I set up my test series and for a case capacity like the 6.5 CM, I'd probably go 0.3 to 0.5 increments and find my OCW.

    With bullet variations, such as weight, ogive profile, bearing surface length, prone to changing pressure curves, one would work up to maximum in exactly the same way. Find a similar bullet weight in your manual, take 10% off, load a single-shot-per-increment series to find max, then go back and test within this limit.
    4) I noticed the factory ammo I have with the same bullet I'm reloading is well below what the guide says is minimum OAL. What's up with that?
    There are several things that set seating depth/COAL.

    First is the SAAMI voluntary standard length. This standardised length ensures that the cartridge will feed through a properly chambered rifle and magazine. Manufacturers are bound by this standard, IF they want their rifles to chamber standard ammo, and/or IF they want their ammo to fit standard chambered rifles. The ammo length is generally given as "maximum" and as long as manufacturers stay below this maximum length, and their load is developed at that seating depth, life is good. To see a cartridge manufacturer load your bullet a little deeper than the manual suggests is a non-issue and could be due to any number of factors, including aesthetics.

    Then we have bullet variations. Due to differing bearing surface lengths and locations with differing bullet designs, we will see some flexibility and variation in length. For example, a round nose has a long bearing surface that starts closer to the tip and will typically seat deeper than a low drag spitzer, which will have a long nose with a short bearing surface located well back from the point. This is why we see differing overall lengths shown in the reloading manuals for various bullet designs, but in all cases, this maximum length will be equal to or less than SAAMI maximum length.

    Then we have chamber/throat variations, and while your rifle should accept the manual's stated maximum length, it may tolerate even longer ammo. In most cases, this doesn't matter. In some situations, one might want to find their rifle's maximum length and use that. Reducing the unguided travel distance for better precision and/or moving the bullet out for maximum powder capacity is another. I typically stay about 0.015" off the rifling, but this can be limited, as shown below.

    Finally, we have a length limitation with regard to feeding. Once we know where the rifling is, we still need to compare that overall length to what will feed through to rifle. An example of this would be a factory chamber with a very long throat, like your typical Remington tactical rifle. If we seat bullets to approach the rifling origin, they won't feed, so our true maximum length is that which will feed through the mag, even though we aren't very close to the rifling.

    I would normally set up my seating die to first feed through the mag, then check for rifling clearance and if I am fortunate enough to have some leeway, I will reduce the length to be 0.015" off the lands and everything works.

    Not necessarily.

    Bottle neck cases, especially with large headspace or over sized, fail near the base. Typically the base comes completely off.

    You can check with thinning just above the web by using a paper clip, straighted, then the tip bent 90 degrees. You run up the inside and feel for a dip.

    Also, from the outside, sometimes you can see a shiny ring just above the base.
    Agreed.

    In fact, I think most people kill their cases in exactly this way due to using the due maker's instructions that are intended to provide SAAMI minimum ammo, which your rifle, unless custom, probably doesn't want or need.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    If you follow the directions for the OCW you will find YOUR setups max load.

    The concept being that if load X is not showing pressure signs, load X+1 (WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF CHARGE STEPS IN THE OCW METHOD) will not be dangerous. So you shoot up to the load that shows the first signs of pressure, and back up one step.
     

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