Red Dot/Holographic with Magnifier vs LPVO (Low Power Variable Optic)

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  • Which you prefer:

    • Red Dot/Holographic with Magnifier

      Votes: 3 13.0%
    • Low Power Variable Optic (LPVO)

      Votes: 20 87.0%

    • Total voters
      23

    Qbeam

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2008
    6,074
    Georgia
    Just throwing out the discussion topic. I have heard that Red Dot/Holographic sights are faster than LPVO, but I seem to shoulder them the same. Insights welcome.


    Q
     

    Yoshi

    Invictus
    Jun 9, 2010
    4,520
    Someplace in Maryland
    I have both and have timed myself using "up drills" a 10yds. My times are equal on both of them. Out further, I am faster with my 1-6 due to the magnification.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I have both and have timed myself using "up drills" a 10yds. My times are equal on both of them. Out further, I am faster with my 1-6 due to the magnification.

    Same, but add in a better reticle, and easier ranging and drop compensation, and it's not even close, the variable is better past 100 yards, and the lead grows the further out you go. I do like my Eotechs and RDS, but figure the large FOV, simplicity, clarity and light weight are kinda ruined once a magnifier is added. Low power magnifiers are a lot of money/bulk to maybe stretch a RDS out to 300 yards, even then, I can still hit 12" plates that far without the magnifier, as the image is a bit brighter without the extra lenses in the way. Shooting a 1-X close takes a little getting used to, but there isn't a huge difference with some of the faster reticles, especially with daylight bright illumination.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Same, but add in a better reticle, and easier ranging and drop compensation, and it's not even close, the variable is better past 100 yards, and the lead grows the further out you go. I do like my Eotechs and RDS, but figure the large FOV, simplicity, clarity and light weight are kinda ruined once a magnifier is added. Low power magnifiers are a lot of money/bulk to maybe stretch a RDS out to 300 yards, even then, I can still hit 12" plates that far without the magnifier, as the image is a bit brighter without the extra lenses in the way. Shooting a 1-X close takes a little getting used to, but there isn't a huge difference with some of the faster reticles, especially with daylight bright illumination.
    I don't disagree per se, but, for me, the platform determines the choice. BDC is great if you're not doing PRS for tiny groups; I run FFP/fixed BDC scopes all over the place and use a ballistics calculator to figure out my drop map ahead of time. For me, speed and ranging is more important than pinpoint precision.

    But there are a lot of platforms - < 10.5" SBRs, pistol cals, and big bores coming to mind - where BDC does not map well, and getting much beyond 200yds is more like mortar fire than direct-fire. For stuff like that, I'd rather be able to mostly stay in reflex mode and be super-fast with the option of using that magnifier for the less-common longer shot. 3x is plenty of magnification for the realistic distances on those platforms. That's not a common way of looking at magnifier usage (most people want to use their expensive magnifier all the time), but it's the model that seems to make the most sense.
     

    Qbeam

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2008
    6,074
    Georgia
    I don't disagree per se, but, for me, the platform determines the choice. BDC is great if you're not doing PRS for tiny groups; I run FFP/fixed BDC scopes all over the place and use a ballistics calculator to figure out my drop map ahead of time. For me, speed and ranging is more important than pinpoint precision.

    But there are a lot of platforms - < 10.5" SBRs, pistol cals, and big bores coming to mind - where BDC does not map well, and getting much beyond 200yds is more like mortar fire than direct-fire. For stuff like that, I'd rather be able to mostly stay in reflex mode and be super-fast with the option of using that magnifier for the less-common longer shot. 3x is plenty of magnification for the realistic distances on those platforms.


    Some good points from everyone. This would be geared more to a 16"-18" (5.56/7.62) general purpose rifle.


    Q
     

    Silverlax

    Active Member
    Nov 13, 2014
    518
    Eastern Shore
    I've used both. A samson magnifier behind an eotech exps 3-2, and holosun acss. I've also used a vortex strike eagle 1-6 and a primary arms 1-8, and have seen in person a few other lpvos (eotech vudu, razor 1-6). Imo the acss behind the magnifier worked great and really clears up the cluttered reticle at 1x in the holosun. The eotech worked great as well because of the secondary dot in the 3-2 reticle. The magnifiers make it easier to hit at range with the red dots but I like the lpvo's better, ymmv. Better target identification at extended ranges and easier wind holds (with certain reticles).
    With technology getting better all the time with lpvos I am gearing myself more towards this for a general purpose rifle. Especially with the higher end lpvos getting in the 15-20oz range.
     

    Yoshi

    Invictus
    Jun 9, 2010
    4,520
    Someplace in Maryland
    Same, but add in a better reticle, and easier ranging and drop compensation, and it's not even close, the variable is better past 100 yards, and the lead grows the further out you go. I do like my Eotechs and RDS, but figure the large FOV, simplicity, clarity and light weight are kinda ruined once a magnifier is added. Low power magnifiers are a lot of money/bulk to maybe stretch a RDS out to 300 yards, even then, I can still hit 12" plates that far without the magnifier, as the image is a bit brighter without the extra lenses in the way. Shooting a 1-X close takes a little getting used to, but there isn't a huge difference with some of the faster reticles, especially with daylight bright illumination.

    Agreed. I run a 36/300 zero with my RDS and am good to go on anything to 300yds. (Not including tiny groups) Anything past that or if I want tinier groups, I grab the variable scope. It's so much better for that. Having said that, I'll use both equally for distances <300... I do shoot the RDS a little more but that's only because I prefer that particular AR over the other ones.
     

    Invicta

    Active Member
    Sep 16, 2018
    255
    I voted LPVO, but ultimately it comes down to intended use. I would like the option of removing the magnifier to save weight if you know you won't need it for whatever your doing with the rifle that day.
     

    CelticBiggie

    Active Member
    Mar 26, 2016
    612
    I went with the RDS and magnifier. I move the magnifier between my AR and my PCC right now, but I shoot MOSTLY at 25 yards and at most 100. And in those ranges the RDS is MORE than enough.

    I am planning on building a 224 upper or Grendel, and that upper will get a traditional optic, and porbably in the 3-9 range.
     

    Qbeam

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2008
    6,074
    Georgia
    The magnifier gives you the versatility to swap between red dots on different platforms without having to re-zero the sights. So many variables (no pun intended) to run through.




    Q
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I don't disagree per se, but, for me, the platform determines the choice. BDC is great if you're not doing PRS for tiny groups; I run FFP/fixed BDC scopes all over the place and use a ballistics calculator to figure out my drop map ahead of time. For me, speed and ranging is more important than pinpoint precision.

    But there are a lot of platforms - < 10.5" SBRs, pistol cals, and big bores coming to mind - where BDC does not map well, and getting much beyond 200yds is more like mortar fire than direct-fire. For stuff like that, I'd rather be able to mostly stay in reflex mode and be super-fast with the option of using that magnifier for the less-common longer shot. 3x is plenty of magnification for the realistic distances on those platforms. That's not a common way of looking at magnifier usage (most people want to use their expensive magnifier all the time), but it's the model that seems to make the most sense.

    I much prefer mil-dots, or something like hash marks spaced evenly some number of MOA as opposed to a fixed scale intended for some load out of some rifle I probably have no intention of shooting. With pistols/SBRs, I like the large quick field of view a RDS offers, and generally don't shoot my little stuff past 200 yards, so less bulk/weight is preffered, I would rather take a little more time on the rare 300+ yard shot with an AR pistol than deal with a magnifier the 99% of the time I am shooting much closer. Personally I find, at least with my flip-to-side magnifiers, they are a lot more awkward and bulky in either position than a slim 30mm tube, so on ANY rifle I want to shoot over 200 yards, or if small groups matter, it gets a variable power. One thing I do wish the market would bring is minimalist low power variables. Instead of cramming ever higher magnification spread in the same 12" long 16+oz optics, I would love a short little < 10oz 1-3 or 1-4, kinda like the old scout rifle concept using a small pistol scope, but with conventional eye relief.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    Love irons. I use them for longer distance on a carbine equipped red dot. More precise but keeping the shooting glasses prescription up to date is a necessity. I do have one older red dot with the best dot I have seen. I can use the top and bottom of the dot to make more precise shots at different ranges since the dot sight keeps everything on one focal plane. That is usually good out to 100 yards with that particular sight.

    I go with the intended use of the arm. For carbine I tried a lpvo and found it too busy on a practical accuracy application reflexive arm, even with an illuminated dot. I didn't care for the weight and bulk, neither. I don't try to make a precision rifle out of it no matter how good it shoots. For a precision AR-15 I go with a standard scope, removable mount, with pop up irons for backup. I am not a big magnification fan, just enough magnification. For the scope I prefer mil dot, hashes second, but will use the BDC type though I shoot it to determine actual impact at different ranges. I do not consider myself a long range rifle shooter, for what that is worth, just my experience shooting to distances of 200 meters.
     
    Last edited:

    Indiana Jones

    Wolverine
    Mar 18, 2011
    19,480
    CCN
    150% a personal preference thing. Working in optics, I will say magnifiers are becoming less and less popular in favor or the variable low powers. I do still love mine however. It is on my wife's AR behind my Eotech 512.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Again, preference often depends on purpose.

    If you're just shooting from a bench at a static target and you have all the in the world, yeah, you can get a lot of mileage out of a good set of irons out to ~200m. But... if you're under time pressure and/or your target is moving, they're not even remotely as good as a reflex sight. I won't even get into the level of training and practice required to use irons effectively vs a reflex sight. This is the same semi-misguided reason a lot of people hate on BDC scopes; their metric for a good reticle is how well it does shooting tiny groups from a bench with no (or a very forgiving) timer. If your metric is "hit somewhere on a large-ish target fast", BDCs are the way to go (provided you figure out your dope, which you'd have to do on a mil-mil anyways).
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    I like low power variable optics better than red dots with magnifiers. I think red dots with magnifiers are a tad awkward, but they are usable. I think eotechs and other holosights work better with magnifiers than red dots.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I like low power variable optics better than red dots with magnifiers. I think red dots with magnifiers are a tad awkward, but they are usable. I think eotechs and other holosights work better with magnifiers than red dots.

    One big benefit of Holographic sights is the center dot stays small under magnification, and starts out smaller, so it's easier to shoot at longer ranges than a dot that will appear to get bigger under magnification, the glass also doesn't need coatings to reflect a certain wavelength LED like a RDS, so the color isn't changed, and they allow more light through, and tend to look better to those like myself with crappy vision. I do use my Eotech magnifier on occasion to sight in dot sights a bit more precise, but usually pull it right off afterwards. It's the old flip to side with latch, so it's relatively huge, especially with a full size dot sight. If Aimpoints weren't tougher, reliable, and able to stay on for years, I would run an EoTech on everything that doesn't need magnification.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    Again, preference often depends on purpose.

    If you're just shooting from a bench at a static target and you have all the in the world, yeah, you can get a lot of mileage out of a good set of irons out to ~200m. But... if you're under time pressure and/or your target is moving, they're not even remotely as good as a reflex sight. I won't even get into the level of training and practice required to use irons effectively vs a reflex sight. This is the same semi-misguided reason a lot of people hate on BDC scopes; their metric for a good reticle is how well it does shooting tiny groups from a bench with no (or a very forgiving) timer. If your metric is "hit somewhere on a large-ish target fast", BDCs are the way to go (provided you figure out your dope, which you'd have to do on a mil-mil anyways).

    That is under timed pressure, knowing the setting and the drop...and with LMT type adjustable rear sights set to the appropriate range it is even better. I have never gotten along well with red sights, in a dot or the old red/orange front on handguns. Just don't see those clearly. Plus I just like irons. Close in, the dot is faster, can't debate that.
     

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