AR10, Who has one?

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  • OSOK1776

    Active Member
    Oct 26, 2011
    496
    Glen Burnie
    Also If I am testing the loads then I would shoot a group, let the rifle cool, shoot a group, let the rifle cool. Kinda like that to validate the load and take out the variable of a rifle barrel getting hot

    Also I use a chrono which helps determine if the flyer was due to a ammo inconsistency
     
    I have a DPMS Panther..It's a good accurate firearm, but like others have posted if it's consistent sub MOA you're looking for buy a bolt gun. I have a a 40 year old Remington 788 in 308 that will run circles around my AR10 out past 300 yards. In fact shooting match ammo from my DPMS and factory hunting loads in the bolt gun, the bolt still wins. I know the panther was never intended to be a match quality rifle but neither was a 788. In my experience few semis can go toe to toe with a bolt.
     

    DarrellA

    Jacksonian Independent
    Aug 20, 2013
    1,184
    MD
    If a sub-MOA guarantee based on 3 shot groups is good enough for Weatherby, it's good enough for me! :D

    That said, point taken. I'll see how things shake out with 5 shot groups. But I'm pretty sure my skill level will need to improve substantially before I get favorable results.

    Thanks!
     

    TEN-X

    Member
    Aug 16, 2011
    31
    Prince Frederick MD
    Ar 10

    Built one a few years ago. Aero upper & lower, Brownells (DPMS) med 16" stainless nitride 5R barrel, MI handguard. AAC silencer/muzzle brake. Doesn't like the silencer (3" groups.) A must is an adjustable gas block. Way over gassed without. IOR Valdada 1.5x8 scope. If you don't want to put out $1500 for a scope, Primary arms has a $400 1x8. Will shoot MOA, but not consistently. It likes the Hirtenburger ball (2") 100 yds.
    I have a Rem 700 5R 20" that shoots sub MOA all day long suppressed or not.

    Use, lots of fun to shoot and keeps the Zombies out of the back 40.
    Picture next to my post.
     

    dmwoct19

    Member
    Sep 26, 2009
    7
    Nottingham, MD
    Maybe a 7mm-08

    Have you considered putting a 7mm-08 upper on it. A couple of years ago, I built an ar-10 on a PSA 10. I use it mainly for hunting & I love how accurate it is. At the range that I belong to, the longest we can shoot is 200 yds & I’m grouping 1.25” consistently. That’s with factory loads. I slapped this gun together & really didn’t do anything to “trick-it-out”. I’m happy with it as it is.......
     

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    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Anybody have any experience with Ballistic Advantage barrels? They guarantee sub MOA, even with their Chrome Moly barrels. They can be had for a good price considering their accuracy guarantee.

    https://www.armorally.com/shop/ballistic-advantage-308-modern-series-20-heavy-barrel/

    https://www.armorally.com/shop/ballistic-advantage-308-premium-series-20-heavy-barrel/

    BA makes decent barrels, but read the fine print on the sub-MOA guarantee. They may require you to use a JP bolt or some other MFG bolt.

    True precision is going to cost some serious money and usually begins with Shilen at the lowest in the price point chart. Lilja, Bartlein, Lothar-Walther, and a few others. You are looking at $500+ for a barrel that comes fromt eh factory with a matched and headspaced bolt. My Shilen 223 Wylde barrel was serialized and the bolt that came with it was also serialized.

    EDIT:
    https://ballisticadvantage.com/20-inch-308-gov-rifle-cmv-modern-barrel.html
    Guaranteed to Perform

    We are committed to providing products that meet, or exceed, the expectations of our most discerning customers. We stand behind that commitment. From the moment you unwrap one of our barrels, as you configure it with your receivers and handguards, and as you fire it on the range or in the field, we want you to experience the unique elegance and uncompromising quality that we craft into every one of our barrels.

    We also stand behind our commitment to performance. All Ballistic Advantage barrels are guaranteed to give sub Minute of Angle (MOA) accuracy with match grade ammunition.1

    If you are not completely satisfied with the form, finish, and fit of any of our barrels, please visit Contact to discuss your concerns. If you find your BA barrel is not performing at the high standard of sub MOA accuracy, please first consult our Troubleshooting Guide on our website. If you need further assistance please visit Contact. Usually, our armorers are able to resolve any issues over the phone. If the issues are not resolved we will ask that the barrel be sent to us for inspection.2 We will either correct the problem or replace the barrel, or if the customer prefers, we will reimburse the purchase price of the barrel.

    1 We define sub MOA as a group size of 1 inch or under at 100 yards with a 3 shot magazine fed group, or 5 shot single loaded group.

    2 The customer is responsible for the initial return shipping costs of the barrel. If any defects are found, BA will reimburse the shipping costs and either replace or refund the original purchase price of the barrel.

    Lilja barrels
    http://riflebarrels.com/product-category/drop-in-barrels/ar/ar10-308/

    Bartlein barrels - Call Mark at Precision Firearms in Martinsburg, WV for pricing. I know he will custom make a barrel for you
    https://bartleinbarrels.com/ar10-and-ar15-barrels/

    Lothar-Walther
    https://www.lothar-walther.com/ar10ar15-gun-barrels/ar10-barrels-stock/

    Shilen
    http://www.shilen.com/ar15Barrels.html

    X-Caliber - customize the barrel to your specs
    http://www.x-caliber.net/ar-10
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    Lol DA is accurate but it's a shame to me that I no longer get the shocked face when $500 barrel price comes up. Just conditioned at this point I guess, actions cost me 3x that.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Lol DA is accurate but it's a shame to me that I no longer get the shocked face when $500 barrel price comes up. Just conditioned at this point I guess, actions cost me 3x that.

    I did a few edits on there for Lilja and the others, all the way to X-Caliber.

    I have my eyes on the X-Caliber custom barrel 18", .30 cal 1:10 5R, .308, mid-length, AR-10 HBAR 1.150 .980 .750GB .750, 5/8"-24, cerakote:black. All for 400, then the Rubber City .308 Match Complete BCG, headspaced to the barrel.

    I'm not sure if Lilja will include a headspaced bold for the price of their barrel or not.
     

    dmable44

    Active Member
    Jul 4, 2018
    117
    I saw X-Caliber but they seem to be fairly new and are totally hit or miss with their QC according to the internet. They seem like a great deal for what you get, almost too good to be true.
     

    jba9597

    Member
    Aug 8, 2018
    1
    I have a aero precision m5e1 ( AR 10). I can't say what it will do at a 1000 since 100 yards is the longest range anywhere near me. At 100 it will definitely do sub MOA but at 1000 I don't think so. The 308 has a lot of drop and can be greatly affected by slight wind. I would like to find out what it can do as soon as I find a longer range near southern MD.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    You also have to remember... people post their best groups NOT their average group.

    I call bs on anyone that says they can do 1/2 moa on a gas gun “on average”
    It took me a long time to realize the truth of what you're saying. People don't seem to understand that it's possible to get a good group out of a blah rifle if you simply play the odds long enough. Getting a sub-MOA 3 shot group once isn't proving shit; getting 5-10 shot sub-MOA groups over-and-over most certainly is. Would also add that I suspect many of the best groups are being shot from very constrained mechanical rests, which is not how I shoot, at least.

    Back on topic: I have a 16" AR-308 (CMMG Mk8 w/ DPMS Sportical upper) and I use it like I would with an AR-15 carbine... 2.5x PA optic on a GDI mount. It works, but it's a heavy mofo compared to the AR-15s I have. Does run nicely with a suppressor, though.
     

    OSOK1776

    Active Member
    Oct 26, 2011
    496
    Glen Burnie
    It took me a long time to realize the truth of what you're saying. People don't seem to understand that it's possible to get a good group out of a blah rifle if you simply play the odds long enough. Getting a sub-MOA 3 shot group once isn't proving shit; getting 5-10 shot sub-MOA groups over-and-over most certainly is. Would also add that I suspect many of the best groups are being shot from very constrained mechanical rests, which is not how I shoot, at least.

    Agreed. I also think its funny how many people say they have a "precision gun" but really when you see them at the range they are the ones that use 1/2 a magazine worth of ammo to get on target at 500 yards. That just does not impress me. Anyone can walk almost any gun "onto target" at any distance if they have enough ammo and can spot their misses.

    What they should strive for is the ability to take a windage call, adjust your dope, apply the fundamentals and ring steel on your first shot at nearly any distance (Between 100 - 800 yards) on an MOA target. If you cant get on target within 3 rds AND once on target you dont have a 9/10 hit rate on an MOA target then either you, your ammo recipe or your rifle are out of sync.

    At 800+ Yards if your rifle / dope / ammo recipe is on point slight adjustments in your fundamentals can throw you off target quickly.
     

    DarrellA

    Jacksonian Independent
    Aug 20, 2013
    1,184
    MD
    Tough group here! The .pdf I posed in #34 shows 5 of 6 (admittedly 3 shot) groups at sub-MOA. 1 group was only very slightly above MOA. That's at least some consistency, not a pick of some random good day.

    I suppose it depends on how one defines "sub-MOA." Not to get totally pendantic, but one could say that until you shoot an infinite number of rounds sub-MOA you haven't actually achieved sub-MOA. :D
     

    OSOK1776

    Active Member
    Oct 26, 2011
    496
    Glen Burnie
    Tough group here!

    Welcome to precision shooting. You should go over to the Snipers Hide forums. They eat peoples hearts over there lol =)

    All that said, we should all go out to the range one day, or multiple days and play around. I love to shoot with other people. I usually bring 3 - 4 rifles out at a time and play all day long. My normal range day weapons are:

    - Kidd 10/22 Ultra Light in 22lr (50 - 100 yards) with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x
    - 18" Ar15 in .223 (100 - 300 yards) with a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8
    - 24" Savage Custom in 6.5CM (300 - 1000 yards) with a Vortex Razor Gen ii 4.5-27
    - 24" Savage Custom in 300WM or 338LM (500+ yards) with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x
     

    OSOK1776

    Active Member
    Oct 26, 2011
    496
    Glen Burnie
    Some of my rifles. I pulled some out of a couple safes so I could move them around and my lady snapped this pic. Also, disregard the far left rifles scope lol I do NOT have 2 "sun shades" on it normally. I grabbed a rifle out of the safe to goto the range and took the shade of it and screwed it onto another rifles scope so i didnt misplace it. lol
     

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    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I suppose it depends on how one defines "sub-MOA." Not to get totally pendantic, but one could say that until you shoot an infinite number of rounds sub-MOA you haven't actually achieved sub-MOA. :D
    There's math reasons why people don't have a lot of respect for three shot groups anymore. Five is the minimum, and ten is better. Yes, this makes it a lot harder to pull off, but does a much better job of demonstrating shooter+system can really consistently achieve that level of performance.

    Let me also note that you can do perfectly fine real-world work with a 2-3MOA shooting rifle... the insistence on the interwebz on having a sub-MOA gas gun and then convincing yourself you've got one any way you can is really not productive. I have several 308s that aren't gonna shoot MOA. I'm fine with that. I know what to do to build a bolt gun that can do it, and if I feel the need, I'll make it happen.
     

    OSOK1776

    Active Member
    Oct 26, 2011
    496
    Glen Burnie
    Let me also note that you can do perfectly fine real-world work with a 2-3MOA shooting rifle...

    I absolutely agree with this. In reality inside of 300 yards 1 - 3 MOA for a single shot, is still a hit on most "targets". That said guns are kind of like cars, no one needs a 10 second 1/4 mile car, millions of people drive and are completely functional with 18 second cars, but it doesnt mean people dont want a faster one =)
     

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