With what C&R rifle you often get caught violating with the ranges rules

whistlersmother · Jul 29, 2017

28Shooter said:
I fully understand the it is an "Empty Chamber Indicator" and that to place the ECI in the barrel is a violation of the rules, but as a practical and technical matter, most double action revolvers have between 5 and 10 chambers in their cylinders so should that warrant 5 - 10 flags? The very supposition is ridiculous but no less so than to think an unloaded double action revolver with the cylinder open is not "Safe" with an ECI in the barrel.

I whole-heartedly agree. See upthread for the Python rendered "safe"...

In order to put in the flag, the cylinder must be open. If the cylinder is open, it can't possibly shoot.

SlowShooter · Jul 29, 2017

this is what I got from the dictionary:

In a rifle, the chamber is the portion of the barrel or firing cylinder in which the cartridge is inserted before being fired. Rifles and pistols generally have a single chamber in their barrels, while revolvers have multiple chambers in their cylinders and no chamber in their barrel.

In a revolver, the cylinder is the cylindrical, rotating part of a revolver containing multiple chambers. The cylinder revolves around a central axis in the revolver to bring each individual chamber into alignment with the barrel for firing.

The ECI or the Chamber Plug or the Flag is a plastic device designed to be inserted into the chamber of the rifle (which is at one end of the barrel.) in the revolver, chambers are in the cylinder and the barrel has no chamber there for the rifle ECI or the Chamber Plug or the Flag should be inserted into the barrel. A lot of us just get the useage of the device mixed up and utilize it incorrectly (due to poor interpretation of the name of the device).

I remember an incident happened in Saudi Arabia. My company sent a malfunction voice system to customer there due to poor Configuration Management. We lost technical details of the system so it took a long while to identify the issue. One of the system engineer there bitterly complained that: When a Japanese built system which has a bug, the company send 10 engineers over to fix it. If it's american made, the company normally send 10 corporate lawyers.

I wonder if they have any engineer in the Board of Trustees or all Lawyer/Lawyer wanna be. Guns are highly technical design and build we just can not use our feeling to deal with them on day to day basic. This is my personal opinion.

rbird7282 · Jul 30, 2017

whistlersmother said:
This is a violation. During a club meeting, this very issue was specifically mentioned.

ECI must go in empty chamber and not the barrel.

Not trying to be a jerk or that I don't believe you but it doesn't say this in the range rules that I can see. Are they now making up infractions that are not in the written range rules?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mawkie · Jul 30, 2017

Wow, semantics have now taken over and someone has seemingly lost the forest for the trees. Thought the ultimate goal was safety, not slavishly following the dictionary. And common sense is being backed out as well. When exceptions cannot be allowed to recognize the real differences in firearm technology then it stops being reasonable and perceived as heavy handed and capricious. The naughty boy in me is tempted to grab my range badges and head to the AGC with my Vennie FN49 and see if I get gig'd over the fixed magazine. I would certainly hope not. Hate to think we've become the very thing that we despise.

Drmsparks · Jul 30, 2017

I have nothing but respect for the position of RO and have never argued with one no matter how wrong they have been (and yes they are wrong on occasion).

Some of the new ROs act like their day is incomplete if they cannot find an infraction and I stress the word new here.

The problems I've seen seem to be coming from some of the new hires. They act like Cresap rejects whose sole purpose is to drive people away from the range.

Last time I was up there with my son I had a guy hovering over us like a vulture with his hand on his sidearm the whole time. Little man trying to fill a big position....desperate to find something wrong. I gave mim nothing and eventually he wandered off.....

This whole thing with the enfields and such is ridiculous, the whole magazines removed thing comes from the NRA competition rules and RSO training and was meant to refer to SEMI AUTOS only. It seems brevity in the range rules now leads to inappropriate nitpicking. No wonder we end up with 500 pages of rules since the first unwritten rule seems to be leave your common sense at home. Guess we need to have the board spell it out for them. Bolt actions, action open flag inserted, semi autos action open and detachable magazines removed.

28Shooter · Jul 30, 2017

Drmsparks said:
I have nothing but respect for the position of RO and have never argued with one no matter how wrong they have been (and yes they are wrong on occasion).

Some of the new ROs act like their day is incomplete if they cannot find an infraction and I stress the word new here.

The problems I've seen seem to be coming from some of the new hires. They act like Cresap rejects whose sole purpose is to drive people away from the range.

Last time I was up there with my son I had a guy hovering over us like a vulture with his hand on his sidearm the whole time. Little man trying to fill a big position....desperate to find something wrong. I gave mim nothing and eventually he wandered off.....

This whole thing with the enfields and such is ridiculous, the whole magazines removed thing comes from the NRA competition rules and RSO training and was meant to refer to SEMI AUTOS only. It seems brevity in the range rules now leads to inappropriate nitpicking. No wonder we end up with 500 pages of rules since the first unwritten rule seems to be leave your common sense at home. Guess we need to have the board spell it out for them. Bolt actions, action open flag inserted, semi autos action open and detachable magazines removed.

SlowShooter · Jul 30, 2017

28Shooter said:

+1

SlowShooter · Jul 30, 2017

on order. will be distributed shortly.

Erno86 · Jul 30, 2017

28Shooter said:
I fully understand the it is an "Empty Chamber Indicator" and that to place the ECI in the barrel is a violation of the rules, but as a practical and technical matter, most double action revolvers have between 5 and 10 chambers in their cylinders so should that warrant 5 - 10 flags? The very supposition is ridiculous but no less so than to think an unloaded double action revolver with the cylinder open is not "Safe" with an ECI in the barrel.

When you step behind the white line or concrete firing pad when a cease fire is called. The SRSO assumes that you've rendered the firearm/firearms as safe with ECI/ECI'S in place. The SRSO sometimes inspects the firing line as a double check.

I think that 1 ECI in the chamber of a DA or SA revolver is sufficient to tell the SRSO and other shooters around him that the shooter has enough experience to know that his revolver has been rendered safe -- So I don't think that 5-10 ECI flags should be required --- That's mostly the SRSO's job...too see whether some numnut put one ECI in place and the rest of the chambers fully loaded --- Which, btw... I believe did happen a couple of weeks ago at the AGC pistol range. The perp's infraction was caught by a SRSO.

Complacency guys. Complacency can get you killed, when you realize it's the guys who claim to have the most experience with firearms --- They are the majority of the one's who are coming in burning with the mistakes.

SlowShooter · Jul 30, 2017

I have a Russian revolver, Nagant M1895 with 7 chambers. It has a fixed cylinder and the only way to load and unload is to do it one by one at the right side of the cylinder. There is no access to the barrel from the rear. The only way to jam the cylinder and to show barrel/1 of the chambers empty is to put a chopstick all the way down. Is that safe enough?

BigSteve57 · Jul 30, 2017

So what is the proper procedure for demonstrating a revolver where you can't release the cylinder, like a Colt SAA, is unloaded?
I've put the ECI in the barrel and put the stem of a 2nd ECI under the hammer.
RSO at the time said that was fine.

SlowShooter · Jul 30, 2017

BigSteve57 said:
So what is the proper procedure for demonstrating a revolver where you can't release the cylinder, like a Colt SAA, is unloaded?
I've put the ECI in the barrel and put the stem of a 2nd ECI under the hammer.
RSO at the time said that was fine.

Then OK, now only God knows. We need a clear official rule to back us up, just in case. We could be in deep trouble before we know it. A weekend without range time is just a day in a dark dungeon.

28Shooter · Jul 30, 2017

Erno86 said:
When you step behind the white line or concrete firing pad when a cease fire is called. The SRSO assumes that you've rendered the firearm/firearms as safe with ECI/ECI'S in place. The SRSO sometimes inspects the firing line as a double check.

I think that 1 ECI in the chamber of a DA or SA revolver is sufficient to tell the SRSO and other shooters around him that the shooter has enough experience to know that his revolver has been rendered safe -- So I don't think that 5-10 ECI flags should be required --- That's mostly the SRSO's job...too see whether some numnut put one ECI in place and the rest of the chambers fully loaded --- Which, btw... I believe did happen a couple of weeks ago at the AGC pistol range. The perp's infraction was caught by a SRSO.

Complacency guys. Complacency can get you killed, when you realize it's the guys who claim to have the most experience with firearms --- They are the majority of the one's who are coming in burning with the mistakes.

So, a big yellow hunk of plastic stuck in the aft end of double-action revolver barrel flagging that the action is open (and safe) isn't "sufficient to tell the SRSO and other shooters around him that the shooter has enough experience to know that his revolver has been rendered safe" - Really?

I know it's the rule but I'd feel safer with the flag (ECI if you wish) in the barrel just like a rifle and please don't tell me "the chamber on a rifle is located in the barrel" we all know that...what did Mawkie say..."semantics"? We follow the rules because they are the rules not because they necessarily make sense and yes, I do have my RSO card from the NRA.

Art3 · Jul 30, 2017

BigSteve57 said:
So what is the proper procedure for demonstrating a revolver where you can't release the cylinder, like a Colt SAA, is unloaded?
I've put the ECI in the barrel and put the stem of a 2nd ECI under the hammer.
RSO at the time said that was fine.

This is what I've been "getting away with" for years. It only proves one chamber is empty, but it locks the gun up so that it cannot be cocked. It has been looked at by many an RSO, especially when this gun is there with her shiny silver sister (she gets a lot of looks) :innocent0

.

Admittedly, it has all the Ruger safety features that a true Colt would not. I'm sure if enough people push this issue, they can argue their way into making us remove cylinders. :rolleyes:

(another case for just casing)

Art3 · Jul 30, 2017

In the past, I've always (erroneously, I now know) done this with DA revolvers:

It definitely prevents the cylinder from closing, which renders the gun inoperable. I feel that it is more secure in the barrel. If Russian hackers were to bump the bench at the AGC, knocking my revolver off, I feel more confident that the ECI in the barrel would stay put and do it's job than if it was in a chamber in the cylinder. That may be a stretch. Another adantage I saw to this technique is that the ECI does not obscure any part of the cylinder. At a glance, it is quite obviously empty.

From now on, I guess I will be doing this:

That technique indeed follows the rules as the ECI is in a chamber. I don't like the fact that it could hide something potentially disasterous:

But those are the rules; I'll follow them :shrug:

The reason we have so many written rules is so that, instead wasting time of arguing with someone who thinks they have a better idea about what is safe, the RSO can simply say, "Those are the rules." That should be the end of the discussion at that time. It can be rehatched later at the proper venue. My club teaches that "the RSO is always right, even if s/he's wrong."

Clark W. Griswold · Jul 30, 2017

I was "talked to" at the end of a cold range one time after the rso asked if the Remington 512p was mine. He proceeded to tell me that he wanted the rod removed from the gun when the range was cold so he could see there wasn't any ammo in the tube. He then wrote down my badge number, so for all I know I'm on double secret probation.

Thought for a second about pointing out that the rod was not a magazine and removing it will not achieve the desired goal of ensuring that there is no ammunition in the firearm, but decided against it. Also thought about pointing out to him that there could be quite a few rounds in that tube and he'd never know if the rod was not there to push them to the receiver

RSOs making up the rules as they go along with rising fees has me considering. A year or two off

Art3 · Jul 30, 2017

While I had my camera out and safe open, I did a little more playing around. The store-bought ECI's rendered the revolvers completely inoperable, regardless of where they were inserted. There was no forcing the cylinder closed. Maybe the shock of the gun being dropped could have broken the ECI, but I wasn't going to try that. I also did a little playing around with a homemade zip-tie type ECI.

The zip-tie in the barrel was still enough to jam up the action. It looks like the cylinder was closed, but it was not. I probably could have forced it, but I was afraid of not being able to get it out. Surely it would have been too tight to allow it to be cocked.

As you can see, with it in a chamber, I was able to fully close and rotate the cylinder, at least twice.

What does that mean? :shrug:

Maybe I'll just case it during cease fire :innocent0

Art3 · Jul 30, 2017

Clark W. Griswold said:
I was "talked to" at the end of a cold range one time after the rso asked if the Remington 512p was mine. He proceeded to tell me that he wanted the rod removed from the gun when the range was cold so he could see there wasn't any ammo in the tube. He then wrote down my badge number, so for all I know I'm on double secret probation.

Thought for a second about pointing out that the rod was not a magazine and removing it will not achieve the desired goal of ensuring that there is no ammunition in the firearm, but decided against it. Also thought about pointing out to him that there could be quite a few rounds in that tube and he'd never know if the rod was not there to push them to the receiver

RSOs making up the rules as they go along with rising fees has me considering. A year or two off

The first time I went there with a tube fed .22, I asked what to do about removing the mag. He said to pull the rod completely out. :shrug:

SlowShooter · Jul 31, 2017

Art3 said:
In the past, I've always (erroneously, I now know) done this with DA revolvers:

View attachment 210502

It definitely prevents the cylinder from closing, which renders the gun inoperable. I feel that it is more secure in the barrel. If Russian hackers were to bump the bench at the AGC, knocking my revolver off, I feel more confident that the ECI in the barrel would stay put and do it's job than if it was in a chamber in the cylinder. That may be a stretch. Another adantage I saw to this technique is that the ECI does not obscure any part of the cylinder. At a glance, it is quite obviously empty.

From now on, I guess I will be doing this:

View attachment 210503

That technique indeed follows the rules as the ECI is in a chamber. I don't like the fact that it could hide something potentially disasterous:

View attachment 210504

But those are the rules; I'll follow them The reason we have so many written rules is so that, instead wasting time of arguing with someone who thinks they have a better idea about what is safe, the RSO can simply say, "Those are the rules." That should be the end of the discussion at that time. It can be rehatched later at the proper venue. My club teaches that "the RSO is always right, even if s/he's wrong."

I see a cartridge in 1 of the chambers in last picture.

I agree with: " But those are the rules; I'll follow them :shrug:

The reason we have so many written rules is so that, instead wasting time of arguing with someone who thinks they have a better idea about what is safe, the RSO can simply say, "Those are the rules." That should be the end of the discussion at that time. It can be rehatched later at the proper venue. My club teaches that "the RSO is always right, even if s/he's wrong.""

SlowShooter · Jul 31, 2017

Clark W. Griswold said:
I was "talked to" at the end of a cold range one time after the rso asked if the Remington 512p was mine. He proceeded to tell me that he wanted the rod removed from the gun when the range was cold so he could see there wasn't any ammo in the tube. He then wrote down my badge number, so for all I know I'm on double secret probation.

Thought for a second about pointing out that the rod was not a magazine and removing it will not achieve the desired goal of ensuring that there is no ammunition in the firearm, but decided against it. Also thought about pointing out to him that there could be quite a few rounds in that tube and he'd never know if the rod was not there to push them to the receiver

RSOs making up the rules as they go along with rising fees has me considering. A year or two off

By removing the rod, I believe you can't load a round into the chamber due to no force from the spring within the rod. Even Though a few rounds might be accidently left behind, but it's the best we can do (common sense). It is way better then trying to hide a loaded gun in its case just to put it out of sight.

With what C&R rifle you often get caught violating with the ranges rules

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Peace through strength

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

Ultimate Member

C&R Whisperer

Old School Rifleman

Ultimate Member

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

Attachments

Banned

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

Attachments

Ultimate Member

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

Ultimate Member

Eqinsu Ocha

Eqinsu Ocha

Active Member

Eqinsu Ocha

Eqinsu Ocha

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

SeaWaves not TigerStripes

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics