HB910/SB958 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms

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  • knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    The stupidest thing about “traceability” is it is truly useless in solving most crime. Think about it, since there is no database linking barrel profiles to serial numbers, pulling a slug from a body or a wall is not going to lead to a gun (adding to the fact that “barrel fingerprints” are largely mythological). Even if they tried to make such a database (as Parris Glendenning remarkably failed at), it wouldn’t work because it is ridiculously easy to rebarrel a gun. My Glock 23 in 40 S&W also has a 9mm target barrel. My Sig P320 has a 40 S&W barrel and two 9mm barrels. My Walther P22 has two barrels. If they want to micro print on firing pins, that is also useless since anyone with basic armorer skills could replace a firing pin and there are these crazy things called revolvers that don’t leave shell casings behind.

    About the only thing that traceability will do is get guns back to gun owners after they have been stolen. SMH.
     

    RuralRifleGuy

    Active Member
    Aug 16, 2018
    918
    Queenstown
    If you swap uppers on an AR, it may be construed as violating the proposed law since it is obviously quite vague in it's wording, by design no doubt.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that after reading it.

    This sounds like it's not just targeting 80% builds and 3D printed guns, it sounds like if I swap out a trigger in my handgun or AR, replace a broken sight or worn out spring that I could be violating the law even if said firearm was purchased through an FFL with the requisite existing background checks. This law as broad as it sounds could boil down to if your firearm breaks you are SOL you are now stuck with a paperweight. Hell, it says assembling so if I break a firearm down for cleaning I could be be committing a crime by reassembling it.
     

    Fox123

    Ultimate Member
    May 21, 2012
    3,926
    Rosedale, MD
    This also says kaput to any form 1 suppressor or SBR you wish to do, regardless of your form, tax stamp fingerprint etc.
     

    N3YMY

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 21, 2013
    2,763
    I wonder how the computer program bit would shake out in court? Weird impractical thought experiment, would reading open source computer code line by line in its entirety to someone count as distribution?

    During early itar restructions on cryptography, one could always take a copy of the source code home (in perl) on a T shirt from a USENIX conference :innocent0

    No one was ever prosecuted to the best of my knowledge...
     

    Kicken Wing

    Snakes and Sparklers
    Apr 5, 2014
    868
    WASH-CO
    I think I may take the day off to testify. This is one that I'm very qualified to talk to.

    Please do. I hope to see Annapolis PACKED for this particular bill. I am awaiting the text. If it is anywhere close to last year's attempt, which it appears so by the description, then it is going to be ugly. I am starting testimony now. I am passionate about this one. How many people are unknowingly going to end up in jail for their pre-1968 non-serialized "untraceable" guns? I know i am jumping the gun here with descriptions. I need to keep my mouth shut until the text is posted.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Guys, the text isn't up. That's just a synopsis. If it's like last year's law, it's not going to ban swapping uppers or even form 1 SBRs.
     

    RuralRifleGuy

    Active Member
    Aug 16, 2018
    918
    Queenstown
    Guys, the text isn't up. That's just a synopsis. If it's like last year's law, it's not going to ban swapping uppers or even form 1 SBRs.

    I understand the full text isn’t available yet, but the vagueness of it is concerning. While the bill may primarily focus on 80% builds and 3D printing as last years did, it’s worth noting what could be effected if the bill text is as vague as the synopsis. Regardless of how some people feel about either 80% frames/receivers and 3D printed firearms, the fact is it could have far greater reach than just those two items. So every firearm owner should be against this bill.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,064
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Bill: HB910 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms [text] / Cross-filed as SB958 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms [text]
    Sponsors HB910 (Del. Dumais) / SB958 (Sen. Lee)
    Hearing: HB910 House Judiciary Wed. 2/26 1pm / SB958 Not scheduled yet
    Location: HB910 1:00 PM - House Office Building, Room 100, Annapolis, MD / SB958 Not scheduled yet
    Status: HB910 First Reading House Judiciary / SB958 First Reading Senate Judicial Proceedings
    Notes: HB910: Written testimony NEW POLICY (Requires 1 print copy & PDF on flash/thumb drive).

    Summary:



    Text is not posted yet.

    I see the "Ban the Interwebs" Bill is back again...
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,064
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    I've seen some of these 3D printed guns on You tube. Many explode or Crack badly after one shot. It reminds me of the zip-gun days. I understand the tech is new, and will get better with time. I have to say I'm in favor of this bill, there will come a time when anyone could run off an entire series of firearms with no oversight at all. My biggest concern would be if they injure the user, there is no recourse.

    "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
    "Stupid hurts."
    ***
    And I must have missed the memo putting you in charge of my safety...
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,064
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    During early itar restructions on cryptography, one could always take a copy of the source code home (in perl) on a T shirt from a USENIX conference :innocent0

    No one was ever prosecuted to the best of my knowledge...

    Actually, that was how Phil Zimmerman got the PGP source code out of the country so it could be keyed into the overseas distribution servers. State tried to indict under ITAR and failed with a spectacular 1A face plant. I remember secretly cheering for him all the way.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    This also says kaput to any form 1 suppressor or SBR you wish to do, regardless of your form, tax stamp fingerprint etc.

    These are very much traceable. I will still build them unless ATF won't take the forms.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Please do. I hope to see Annapolis PACKED for this particular bill. I am awaiting the text. If it is anywhere close to last year's attempt, which it appears so by the description, then it is going to be ugly. I am starting testimony now. I am passionate about this one. How many people are unknowingly going to end up in jail for their pre-1968 non-serialized "untraceable" guns? I know i am jumping the gun here with descriptions. I need to keep my mouth shut until the text is posted.

    I’d be guilty. I’ve got a pre 1968 unserialized shotgun.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    I’d be guilty. I’ve got a pre 1968 unserialized shotgun.



    Me too. I have a 1929 Winchester break action with no S/N. Are they going to arrest all of the people whose WWI, WWII, and Korean War bring backs are not serialized? There are a lot of people out there that have had these in their families for decades.
     

    Rab1515

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 29, 2014
    2,081
    Calvert
    I've seen some of these 3D printed guns on You tube. Many explode or Crack badly after one shot. It reminds me of the zip-gun days. I understand the tech is new, and will get better with time. I have to say I'm in favor of this bill, there will come a time when anyone could run off an entire series of firearms with no oversight at all. My biggest concern would be if they injure the user, there is no recourse.

    Serious question. How, pray tell, do you plan on stopping me? Welcome to the information age; the cat's out of the bag. Good luck getting it back in.
     

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    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,158
    there will come a time when anyone could run off an entire series of firearms with no oversight at all

    That time came about 240 years ago.

    how-the-british-gun-control-program-precipitated-the-american-revolution
    This Article chronologically reviews the British gun control which precipitated the American Revolution: the 1774 import ban on firearms and gun powder; the 1774-75 confiscations of firearms and gun powder, from individuals and from local governments; and the use of violence to effectuate the confiscations. It was these events which changed a situation of rising political tension into a shooting war. Each of these British abuses provides insights into the scope of the modern Second Amendment.

    From the events of 1774-75, we can discern that import restrictions or bans on firearms or ammunition are constitutionally suspect — at least if their purpose is to disarm the public, rather than for the normal purposes of import controls (e.g., raising tax revenue, or protecting domestic industry). We can discern that broad attempts to disarm the people of a town, or to render them defenseless, are anathema to the Second Amendment; such disarmament is what the British tried to impose, and what the Americans fought a war to ensure could never again happen in America. Similarly, gun licensing laws which have the purpose or effect of only allowing a minority of the people to keep and bear arms would be unconstitutional. Finally, we see that government violence, which should always be carefully constrained and controlled, should be especially discouraged when it is used to take firearms away from peaceable citizens. Use of the military for law enforcement is particularly odious to the principles upon which the American Revolution was based.
     

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