starting reloading for long range rifle

To benchmark you rifle and you, get some Federal Gold Medal Match and go shoot.

If the combo of you and your rifle does not shoot FGMM well, then fix them.

It also gives you a benchmark for your own reloads.

Pinecone said:

To benchmark you rifle and you, get some Federal Gold Medal Match and go shoot.

If the combo of you and your rifle does not shoot FGMM well, then fix them.

It also gives you a benchmark for your own reloads.

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He has already been through this process

DanGuy48 said:

One more thing, if you’re getting into long range, buy Brian Litz’s book and read it...a couple times. It’s close to being the Bible on that topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Ballistics-Long-Range-Shooting/dp/0990920615

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Ordered the book. Its being delivered beginning of next week. Thanks.

Pinecone said:

Or you can just use one of the stock recipes that have been developed via OCW method - http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-load-recipes/4533485759

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Huh... I have always used ladders when working up a new charge, firing groups of 5 at each charge. However, cycling through all charges in the ladder to spread out things like barrel fouling, wind changes, light changes etc. makes sense. Also, a " standard" charge weight makes sense. Kinda like buying match ammo as an accepted standard to eliminate ammo variance. Stole the "standard charges for each bullet weight in 308 for Varget.

ras_oscar said:

Huh... I have always used ladders when working up a new charge, firing groups of 5 at each charge. However, cycling through all charges in the ladder to spread out things like barrel fouling, wind changes, light changes etc. makes sense. Also, a " standard" charge weight makes sense. Kinda like buying match ammo as an accepted standard to eliminate ammo variance. Stole the "standard charges for each bullet weight in 308 for Varget.

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Ladder only looks at vertical dispersement. It does not "see" horizontal issues.

Major03 said:

If you do that, measure the concentricity and neck uniformity as well. My bet is that store bought ammo is more all over the place than you’d think.

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How does one go about measuring neck concentricity?

ras_oscar said:

How does one go about measuring neck concentricity?

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You use special tools designed for that purpose. Technically, you'd be measuring run out, which is how far off of concentric the case is.

https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/steps-to-minimize-bullet-run-out/detail.htm?lid=16099

The poor man's way to get a sense of how much run out you have is to roll the round over a level surface and observe the wobble of the bullet tip.

You can spend a LOT of money buying special tools and a LOT of time in case prep to get case uniformity...but for MOST shooters, developing a charge weight that works best for your rifle is time better spent and will get you most of the way there, and OCW's have probably already been developed for your bullet/primer/brass combo by others.

Case in point, if you were to measure run out and case neck thickness (two areas precision shooters tend to start exploring when reloading) on an off the shelf box of FGMM...you'd probably be shocked at how not uniform those cases really are. So why is FGMM so accurate? A lot of time and study went into the OCW for those components.

Say for the purpose of discussion that I have a loaded cartridge and I have identified that it is out out of round. Lets also say for the purpose of discussion that the neck thickness has been measured and found to be consistent. How do I correct? do I run through the crimp die twice, rotating 90 degrees? Check during the prime step and resize? Something else?

For brass that has been fired in my gas rifle, is it better to do a full length resize, or a neck only resize? I have both dies, and have thus far been doing full length.

ras_oscar said:

For brass that has been fired in my gas rifle, is it better to do a full length resize, or a neck only resize? I have both dies, and have thus far been doing full length.

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Most benchrest shooters run a full length neck bushing die on bolt guns. Being a semi-auto, you will want to full length size AND bump the shoulder .004" vs the .001-.002" for a bolt fun.

Speed3 said:

Most benchrest shooters run a full length neck bushing die on bolt guns. Being a semi-auto, you will want to full length size AND bump the shoulder .004" vs the .001-.002" for a bolt fun.

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Same for most long range shooters.

Pinecone said:

Same for most long range shooters.

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You'd be surprised how many times I'll see someone "forcing" the bolt closed on the line, only to find out that they are neck sizing only. I see it at a few matches a year to be honest.

ras_oscar said:

Question: Has anyone ever disassembled a half dozen rounds of match ammo to measure the round-to-round variance in bullet and charge weights? If not, that might be an instructive use of my weekend, since I have some extra ammo lying around.

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Matter of fact, yes, for the Lapua 167gr match ammunition since someone left the rounds over winter in a leather case and the brass started corroding.
For obvious reasons I cannot comment on brass uniformity but out of the 10 rounds we pulled apart, bullet weight was spread as much as you would expect from a same size sample of the comercially available components. Powder charges variied by 0.2 grains maximum of a non-specified stick powder (very similar to N140 from the expected velocities, though) with 5 rounds being of the same weight and the other ones either 0.1 (3) or 0.2 (2) grains below.

Given that this is a really small sample size, I can tell you the following:
- bullets are what is out there in the market. If you want smaller weight spreads, buy a large number and select according to weight.
- propellant variances are consistent with a volumetric powder measure of good quality


Now as far as your reloading for "long range" goes. If you are mainly shooting 100&200yds many factors won't really weight in yet. For getting decent accuracy at those ranges, choose a reputable bullet manufacturer (Berger, Nosler, Lapua, Sierra, Hornady ..... etc.), start treating your brass uniformely (batches, check and trim length, clean and debur flash hole) but also don't forget to hone your other skills as in learn to shoot consistently.

Once you start hitting 500+yds stuff gets a lot more interesting with transsonics towards the end of the flight, overstabilization of bullets (think decreased G1/G7 and increased spread due to axial precession) and other variabilities that you might not have heard about yet. The most important thing to remember, though. Change one factor at a time and keep a good record. It always pays off if you can go back to a working load and figure out what you did wrong in changing it.

Speaking of Federal Gold Match: There is a lot of information on replicating this round in .308 using Federal Brass & primers as well as 168gr SMK and either IMR4064, RL-15 or Varget on the net. You might want to start as these threads and vids teach a lot about consistency.

ras_oscar said:

Say for the purpose of discussion that I have a loaded cartridge and I have identified that it is out out of round. Lets also say for the purpose of discussion that the neck thickness has been measured and found to be consistent. How do I correct? do I run through the crimp die twice, rotating 90 degrees? Check during the prime step and resize? Something else?

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Honestly just shoot it. Set it to the side for a fouler or practice round if it / they are really off. For most shooters, it’s not really going to make too much of a difference unless it’s at long range...say beyond 600 yds.

Hornady makes a concentricty gauge that can “correct” for run out on loaded rounds. By correct they mean push on the bullet until it reads more true in the gauge...which can correct the concentrity but at the expense of messing up the neck tension...which in my opinion is at least if not more important.

So, the real trick is to figure out what is causing the problem in your brass prep and reloading steps.

There is always the story of David Tubbs. He loaded for a big match, gathered up all the most perfect rounds to take the match.

Went to the match, won it, went home.

Found he had left the "perfect" rounds and home, and had taken the ones he intended for shorter range practice.

Pinecone said:

There is always the story of David Tubbs. He loaded for a big match, gathered up all the most perfect rounds to take the match.

Went to the match, won it, went home.

Found he had left the "perfect" rounds and home, and had taken the ones he intended for shorter range practice.

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Sounds like confidence at the line is a big part of the process.

You mean to tell me it's the Indian and not the arrow?!?!?!? That taking all those dollars and all that time invested in reloading tools and dies and presses on the bench could have been better spent on the range actually shooting!?!?!?!?!?!

I'm being sarcastic because of course that's true. Confidence and the ability to adjust to the environmental conditions has a far more profound effect on your accuracy and precision, and it's hard to short cut what it takes to get experience.

Reloading is itself it's own hobby...each reloader needs to determine for themselves what their goals are and what they're trying to get out of it. I like the tinkering of reloading, even if in reality it doesn't really make me that much of a better shooter or save me that much money.

Major03 said:

You mean to tell me it's the Indian and not the arrow?!?!?!? That taking all those dollars and all that time invested in reloading tools and dies and presses on the bench could have been better spent on the range actually shooting!?!?!?!?!?!

I'm being sarcastic because of course that's true. Confidence and the ability to adjust to the environmental conditions has a far more profound effect on your accuracy and precision, and it's hard to short cut what it takes to get experience.

Reloading is itself it's own hobby...each reloader needs to determine for themselves what their goals are and what they're trying to get out it. I like the tinkering of reloading, even if in reality it doesn't really make that much of a better shooter or really save me that much money.

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Certainly agree with the Indian vs the arrow. Everyone knows that the ballistic calculator tells you a crosswind at 5mph does ...but what MOST(including myself) can't do is be able to FEEL what a 3,5,7mph wind feels like. I can correct for a miscall in the wind, but I can NEVER see it coming, my scores show it lol

I'm on the opposite side of things for reloading...it has become a chore for me. If it were cheaper to buy 6mmBR than load it, I would! I can't buy for the 6x47L and couldn't afford to if I wanted to. Reloading saves me money first, and helps me shoot smaller groups. The hours I spend in the "dungeon" I could do with out.

Speed3 said:

Certainly agree with the Indian vs the arrow. Everyone knows that the ballistic calculator tells you a crosswind at 5mph does ...but what MOST(including myself) can't do is be able to FEEL what a 3,5,7mph wind feels like. I can correct for a miscall in the wind, but I can NEVER see it coming, my scores show it lol

I'm on the opposite side of things for reloading...it has become a chore for me. If it were cheaper to buy 6mmBR than load it, I would! I can't buy for the 6x47L and couldn't afford to if I wanted to. Reloading saves me money first, and helps me shoot smaller groups. The hours I spend in the "dungeon" I could do with out.

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Have you tried coaching a good shooter during a practice or team match? It is amazing how much you can learn by doing it! I learned a great deal this way, no book or video can compare.

dist1646 said:

Have you tried coaching a good shooter during a practice or team match? It is amazing how much you can learn by doing it! I learned a great deal this way, no book or video can compare.

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I've shot fclass causally for 5 years, and still not good at ready wind. The guy I shoot with the most, is a great shooter and we often go to matches together and discuss reading wind etc. I'm not good enough to coach anyone to be honest.

I'm going to be smarter this year, I'm pushing a 107gr 300fps faster...going to use my sighters the way they should be.....max wind one direction fire, max wind the other fire...and play the law of averages.

I shot often at Reade's(which has decent wind and mirage) and will be there tomorrow at 1k, hoping the rain doesn't bring lots of wind or I'll shoot in the 580's again lol.

Never think you are not good enough to coach. I found that you are only not good enough until you do it. It is a learning process and it sounds like you and your buddy may have a perfect opportunity to learn and improve each other's skills. Observing conditions through the spotting scope and seeing where the bullet impacts on the target is about the fastest way I know of to make significant improvement. Who ever you are coaching needs to be honest about their shot call too. If they make a bad shot, they should tell you where they called the shot. I was fortunate enough to shoot with and coach some really good shooters, like John Harrison and that made my learning curve much shorter. As a rule of thumb, I generally make full value corrections. As John once told me, "An 8 at 9:00 is as good as an 8 at 3:00", so there is no reason not to make full corrections. Best of luck with your shoot tomorrow!