Accuracy Level To Aspire To

Biggfoot44 · Aug 2, 2017

On the Original Topic, what Nanook said in post #13 . 95% of "advanced skills " are Fundamentals done well .

travistheone · Aug 2, 2017

https://mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2017/07/05/establishing-hard-standards/

great content with a rambling writing style.

One of the subjects we discuss in this blog, a lot, is the importance of having quantifiable metrics of performance. A large part of that is what I call “soft standards,” i.e. “I did better than I did last time,” and “I performed the drill/skill correctly.” On the same hand however, there is a time and a place for “hard standards.”
“Hard standards” are simply a published set of metrics that a given group of people are expected to be able to achieve, on demand, without specific preparation or warm-up. As individual practitioners of…dare I say…the “Heroic Ideal,” soft standards really should be more important to us than soft standards, but hard standards do have a very important role to play as well.
In the first place, it allows us the confidence to accept fate stoically. “What is, is.” If I have met a hard standard, on demand, without preamble or warm-up, then I know–without doubt or uncertainty–that I am capable of achieving that. I don’t have to go into a disturbing situation wondering, “Gee, I wonder what I am capable of today?” I can simply plan my fight, however briefly, around that standard.
This ties into the second place where hard standards are important. If I am planning something that requires more than just myself to achieve, I need to make my plans predicated on the known, quantifiable capabilities of those on my prospective team. If I don’t KNOW that Joe Snuffy can hit a given rifle shot, on demand, every single time, then I cannot make Joe Snuffy making that shot, the locus of my operation. Sure, he MIGHT make it, and everything might turn out alright. He is just as likely however, to NOT make the shot, ensuring failure.
If you are part of a group: whether a local prepper group, a “militia,” or a police department or military unit, and you don’t have hard standards in place, you’re not serious about being able to accomplish your mission.

davsco · Aug 2, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
Since I'm not interested in becoming a competitive shooter and basically my end goal is close quarters self defense, where there would be no "warm up", I do exactly the opposite.

highly suggest you, and everyone else, if you haven't done so, do a couple of idpa and uspsa matches. it's not force on force training, nor tactical training, but when that buzzer goes off and everyone is watching you, there's enough pressure to get your blood going. great opportunity to see how you, and your gun and gear, work together under a little pressure. a whole different animal than doing single or double taps on a static range, even using a timer. if you don't want any 'warm up,' shoot the stages blind with no walk-throughs. plus these are a ton of fun.

tkd4life · Aug 2, 2017

davsco said:
highly suggest you, and everyone else, if you haven't done so, do a couple of idpa and uspsa matches. it's not force on force training, nor tactical training, but when that buzzer goes off and everyone is watching you, there's enough pressure to get your blood going. great opportunity to see how you, and your gun and gear, work together under a little pressure. a whole different animal than doing single or double taps on a static range, even using a timer. if you don't want any 'warm up,' shoot the stages blind with no walk-throughs. plus these are a ton of fun.

I disagree. I haven't shot uspsa, but I've done IDPA and was not a fan of some of the rules. I can assure you that when on a two way rifle range no one is going to "dock you points" if you drop and leave a magazine that has ammo in it. Which by the way they told you that you have to do. I found myself paying more attention to the rules vs than my actual shooting. IDPA isn't about accuracy it's about speed. There is a difference.

Nanook · Aug 2, 2017

tkd4life said:
IDPA isn't about accuracy it's about speed. There is a difference.

Center mass is center mass. If you can center mass more valid targets and not ding the "hands up, don't shoot", great. If you can do that faster, especially in multiple-target environments, even better.

The OP talked about accuracy and group size. Get the fundamentals down solid and grow from there.

Art3 · Aug 2, 2017

alucard0822 said:
Proficiency with a pistol is about so much more than group size, unless you are looking to shoot bullseye slow fire group size doesn't really matter. The goal is to place all shots on a target of given size as fast as you can for the given distance. Learning to time your shots, to break shots anywhere from the instant you reset the trigger with the slide pointed at a target, all the way up to taking the time to line up the sights and hit a 6" target that is 50+ yards away. If your group is too small, shoot faster, if you are throwing shots wide, slow down or figure out what you are doing wrong, learn to fire as soon as you have enough of a sight picture to work, especially when moving from target to target. I wasted years chasing small groups at public ranges that didn't allow rapid fire. Soon as I started competing, found a private range without overbearing rules, started working with a timer, and using several blank sheets of paper or plates, I learned how fast I could shoot and still hit a target. That improved my skill much faster, including "traditional" accuracy with a bullseye target, although I only use them for occasional testing and tuning guns and handloads.

Whatever of mine may be accused of being too small, it has never been a group.

j_h_smith said:
My suggestion is to NEVER be satisfied with your accuracy. Always strive to do better.

AlanInSilverSpring said:
You're completely missing, or ignoring, the point. Of course one can't plan for every situation, but so far you haven't offered a plan for ANY situation besides "once the bad guy raises his gun.......". That's not exactly a "plan" in my book. The whole point is, what do you do BEFORE that happens ?

Here's where I'm coming from..........
It's the middle of the night.
You hear someone in your house.
You quietly roll out of bed and pick up your gun.
You peek around your bedroom door and see someone rummaging through your desk in the next room.

According to you it's not a good idea to announce your presence OR call the police.

So exactly what do you do ? What's the plan ?

Do you live in MD? We all have different plans, but threatening someone's life with a gun (that's what their lawyer will say, "Freeze, I've got a gun!" means) shouldn't be the first one. Leave that kind of justice in America.

davsco said:
highly suggest you, and everyone else, if you haven't done so, do a couple of idpa and uspsa matches. it's not force on force training, nor tactical training, but when that buzzer goes off and everyone is watching you, there's enough pressure to get your blood going. great opportunity to see how you, and your gun and gear, work together under a little pressure. a whole different animal than doing single or double taps on a static range, even using a timer. if you don't want any 'warm up,' shoot the stages blind with no walk-throughs. plus these are a ton of fun.

tkd4life said:
I disagree. I haven't shot uspsa, but I've done IDPA and was not a fan of some of the rules. I can assure you that when on a two way rifle range no one is going to "dock you points" if you drop and leave a magazine that has ammo in it. Which by the way they told you that you have to do. I found myself paying more attention to the rules vs than my actual shooting. IDPA isn't about accuracy it's about speed. There is a difference.

I haven't tried IDPA, or USPSA, but I will say that operating under the timer in the little bit of 3 gun dabbling I've done is a real eye opener. It has never taken me longer to get a mag out of my pocket and into my pistol (something I've done hundreds of times) than when the clock was ticking. :rolleyes:

Moving and shooting under stress would seem to be a great tool to put into one's belt, regardless of where it was found.

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 2, 2017

Art3 said:
Do you live in MD? We all have different plans, but threatening someone's life with a gun (that's what their lawyer will say, "Freeze, I've got a gun!" means) shouldn't be the first one. Leave that kind of justice in America.

You don't like my approach ? That's fine. I'm perfectly okay with being challenged and having to rethink my actions. That's the only way we learn. Constructive criticism ? Absolutely, bring it on ! I do however have a problem when people simply want to be critical and shuffle away without offering any alternatives.

SO, I'll ask the same question I asked the other person........

It's the middle of the night.
You hear someone in your house.
You quietly roll out of bed and pick up your gun.
You peek around your bedroom door and see someone rummaging through your desk in the next room.

What EXACTLY do you do ? What's YOUR plan ?

mopar92 · Aug 2, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
You don't like my approach ? That's fine. I'm perfectly okay with being challenged and having to rethink my actions. That's the only way we learn. Constructive criticism ? Absolutely, bring it on ! I do however have a problem when people simply want to be critical and shuffle away without offering any alternatives.

SO, I'll ask the same question I asked the other person........

It's the middle of the night.
You hear someone in your house.
You quietly roll out of bed and pick up your gun.
You peek around your bedroom door and see someone rummaging through your desk in the next room.

What EXACTLY do you do ? What's YOUR plan ?

Shine my WML to make sure it's not someone I love and if not, tell them to get the fvck out and leave everything.

They don't need to know what the shiny thing is attached to just that there is a shiny thing and a person there.

If they comply, cool. Escort them outside and hold them at gunpoint until the popo shows up. If they don't or I find them doing something that puts me in fear of my life or others then I put them down like a rabid animal.

There's no legal requirement for me to tell them I have a gun or I may shoot them.

Sthomas229 · Aug 2, 2017

mopar92 said:
Shine my WML to make sure it's not someone I love and if not, tell them to get the fvck out and leave everything.

They don't need to know what the shiny thing is attached to just that there is a shiny thing and a person there.

If they comply, cool. Escort them outside and hold them at gunpoint until the popo shows up. If they don't or I find them doing something that puts me in fear of my life or others then I put them down like a rabid animal.

There's no legal requirement for me to tell them I have a gun or I may shoot them.

Not questioning your tactics, but I won't mount a light on a defense firearm. What if it is a loved one, you're now pointing your firearm at them.

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 2, 2017

mopar92 said:
Shine my WML to make sure it's not someone I love and if not, tell them to get the fvck out and leave everything.

They don't need to know what the shiny thing is attached to just that there is a shiny thing and a person there.

If they comply, cool. Escort them outside and hold them at gunpoint until the popo shows up. If they don't or I find them doing something that puts me in fear of my life or others then I put them down like a rabid animal.

There's no legal requirement for me to tell them I have a gun or I may shoot them.

Agree with everything you said, and yes, I'm aware there's no legal requirement.

My thinking is that I want them to know so that there's absolutely no doubt in their mind what's going to happen if they challenge me. I don't want them to think for even a moment they might have the upper hand

mopar92 · Aug 2, 2017

Sthomas229 said:
Not questioning your tactics, but I won't mount a light on a defense firearm. What if it is a loved one, you're now pointing your firearm at them.

2 things.
1. No I'm not. I use my light at a downward angle (generally) and the light that "bounces back" is generally more than enough for usability for ID purposes.
2. If I was drunk and bonked on my head and had amnesia and forgot all my training theprice of 1-3 seconds of muzzling someone finger off trigger would be much less than the lifetime of regret I would face if I where to shoot a loved one or innocent person by mistake.

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 2, 2017

Sthomas229 said:
Not questioning your tactics, but I won't mount a light on a defense firearm. What if it is a loved one, you're now pointing your firearm at them.

I like your thinking. That's one thing I like about the 300 lumen streamlight tlr 1. It'll light up a room pretty good without having to be directly on target.

mopar92 said:
2 things.
1. No I'm not. I use my light at a downward angle (generally) and the light that "bounces back" is generally more than enough for usability for ID purposes.
2. If I was drunk and bonked on my head and had amnesia and forgot all my training theprice of 1-3 seconds of muzzling someone finger off trigger would be much less than the lifetime of regret I would face if I where to shoot a loved one or innocent person by mistake.

mopar92 · Aug 2, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
Agree with everything you said, and yes, I'm aware there's no legal requirement.

My thinking is that I want them to know so that there's absolutely no doubt in their mind what's going to happen if they challenge me. I don't want them to think for even a moment they might have the upper hand

I don't want them to know shit. I inventoried last week and only have 150 rounds of defensive ammo loaded and ready to go (in mags, tube mags and on speedloaders). Suppose the next night they bring 151 dudes to come get my gun? Or suppose they wait till I'm at work and just kick in the door?

I'm not there to impress or intimidate them. I want them to have 2 bits of knowledge. This isn't my house and I'm being told to leave.

smokey · Aug 2, 2017

tkd4life said:
I disagree. I haven't shot uspsa, but I've done IDPA and was not a fan of some of the rules. I can assure you that when on a two way rifle range no one is going to "dock you points" if you drop and leave a magazine that has ammo in it. Which by the way they told you that you have to do. I found myself paying more attention to the rules vs than my actual shooting. IDPA isn't about accuracy it's about speed. There is a difference.

Ol "speed is fine, accuracy is final" LAV on competition vs defense...

.... Especially IDPA nowadays with it going more towards sport and less of a focus on its defensive origins. Compared to other shooting sports IDPA does try to keep you from winning by missing fast though with the accuracy point system.

The stress and visual/mental side does shake out your weaknesses pretty well. When I go through a stage and completely fail to engage a target, it mindf^cks me a little because if it WAS a defensive scenario, I just failed to register a threat. It tells me I need to slow down and work on the visual searching side of things during movement.

I basically use sport stuff to help highlight where my deficiencies are, and then go drill them to improve them.

hogarth · Aug 2, 2017

Ugh. Lots of fail in this thread.

To the OP:

I'd start with the NRA "Basics of Pistol" tests. See here:

https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/shooting-the-nra-basics-of-pistol-course/

No time constraints and can be shot anywhere. What I like about it is you have to do each string four times. No fluke great string and calling it quits. It rewards consistency. It also allows you to compare your performance with different guns.

After that, if you're really interested in "defensive shooting", I'd look at the standards developed by notable defensive shooting instructors. One of the best is Tom Givens Core Pistol Skills. See here:

https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/random-day-at-the-range/

I like it because it gives you a scoring range for different levels and also because it skews heavily toward fast shots up close but still includes some distance work.

The CSAT pistol standards are also included in the above article, and they are challenging as well.

As far as targets go, I tend to just shoot on 3x5 cards taped to a B27. I do not like shooting at the scoring zones of the B27 since the X ring is about even with a point just above the belly button. The scoring zone in the IDPA target is much more appropriate.

Having said that, a lot of top notch instructors just use B8 repair centers (Defoor, Vickers, all the Northern Red guys, Darryl Bolke and Wayne Dobbs, etc.). What they have in common is they are all great shots, have all put people in the dirt, and trained others who have done the same. Something to think about.

IDPA is fine, but understand that it's just another way to practice and is not what I would call defensive training at all. It's a game. It's fun. It will allow you to maintain and even develop some skills. But unless you shoot the same course of fire each time, then there is no metric to measure your improvement.

Art3 · Aug 2, 2017

AlanInSilverSpring said:
You don't like my approach ? That's fine. I'm perfectly okay with being challenged and having to rethink my actions. That's the only way we learn. Constructive criticism ? Absolutely, bring it on ! I do however have a problem when people simply want to be critical and shuffle away without offering any alternatives.

SO, I'll ask the same question I asked the other person........

It's the middle of the night.
You hear someone in your house.
You quietly roll out of bed and pick up your gun.
You peek around your bedroom door and see someone rummaging through your desk in the next room.

What EXACTLY do you do ? What's YOUR plan ?

My plan is to play it by the book: secure family, 911, wait.

Biggfoot44 · Aug 2, 2017

On the secondary topic :

There is no Universal Plan . Every situation must be dealt with as it unfolds in front of you, with the resources you have at that moment .

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 3, 2017

Art3 said:
My plan is to play it by the book: secure family, 911, wait.

Not a bad plan either. My other plan that I've actually practiced, is to hunker down in a spot that I have a clear view of the doorway but would be difficult for someone entering the room to spot me before I had a clear advantage, call 911, and wait for the good guys to arrive.

Like Bigfoot said, there's no universal plan and you'd have to deal with whatever situation presents itself but I feel much safer/secure in knowing I've practiced for the most likely scenarios. Hopefully I'll die before having to put any of them to the test.

BTW, I like your signature. I've used that line a couple times

AlanInSilverSpring · Aug 3, 2017

Robmyaing said:
I just started shooting about seven months ago. Please let me know what you think, level of accuracy an average shooter like me should reasonably expect to attain - Hit a Target (Size ?) consistently from what Distance? with a semi automatic 9mm pistol - after 1 year of weekly visits to the range - 50 to 100 rounds per visit and about 1 hour of dry fire practice at home. I saw this on the Internet and would like your thoughts on reasonableness of the goals outlined. Thanks for all your input.

Level 1 All 5 shots hit a 3 X 5 index card at 3 Yards

Level 2 All 5 shots hit a 3 X 5 index card at 5 Yards

Level 3 All 5 shots hit a Paper Plate at 7 Yards

Level 4 All 5 shots hit a Paper Plate at 10 Yards

Level 5 All 5 shots hit a Paper Plate at 15 Yards

Sorry for semi hijacking your thread and straying so far off topic

Robmyaing · Aug 3, 2017

Thank you for your post. I will try the NRA targets at the distance specified.

Accuracy Level To Aspire To

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