Long Distance Shooting

Striper69 · Nov 20, 2021

I'm planning on trying to shoot some deer from high on a Missouri River bluff. I used my range finder today and the deer will be 350 to 450 yards away. I'll be up pretty high as well. I'm going to zero my 300 Win Mag rifle at 6 inches above bulls eye at 100 yards. That should zero me at 300 yards approx. I want to get some practice in for next season because I hope to hunt Elk and Mule Deer in Montana on a friend's property.

My question is: will I have to compensate for the height I'm shooting from?

steves1911 · Nov 20, 2021

Yes aim lower ..i dont have the exact formula right now but you need to know the cosine to be exact. At 300yds the diffrence wont be much unless its quite steep.

E.Shell · Nov 20, 2021

steves1911 said:
Yes aim lower ..i dont have the exact formula right now but you need to know the cosine to be exact.

An uncorrected uphill/downhill shot will go high, because the horizontal distance isn't as great as the line-of-sight distance.
The cosine for your angle of departure/shot angle from horizontal is multiplied against the line-of-sight distance to arrive at a horizontal distance.
Elevation is calculated for the horizontal distance.
Wind is calculated for line-of sight distance.

At 300yds the diffrence wont be much unless its quite steep.

This *probably* true, but that also depends on the rifle's trajectory curve. With a .22-250, it is minimal, with a .22 Long Rifle, it is drastic. Gotta do the math to know what YOU have to do.

davsco · Nov 20, 2021

Some rangefinders compensate for angles, check yours

davsco · Nov 20, 2021

Best answer is to put a target out there and see where you're actually hitting, then u know for sure.

lazarus · Nov 20, 2021

davsco said:
Some rangefinders compensate for angles, check yours

And you’ll need one, ideally that does!

Even with 300wm the difference between 350yds and 450yds is pretty pronounced. Add in the difference for the vertical…

steves1911 · Nov 20, 2021

davsco said:
Some rangefinders compensate for angles, check yours

This!!!
A good rangefinder is priceless especially hunting across steep terrain that has a way of making everything seem farther away then it really is.

Johnny5k · Nov 20, 2021

Yep, It is just physics. I believe it is called the HCD or Horizontal Component Distance. So your drop is based on this number and not the total range. You can calculate this with trigonometry, using the range and any other value of the right triangle created, with the correct formula.

Range finders will use the angle to calculate HCD (mine will), but if you know the exact elevation difference, you can calculate that way as well.

Shooting at a 45 degree angle should give you a drop that is equal to about half of the normal drop, compared to the same distance to target on a flat range. Shooting up or down hill shouldn't matter much.

E.Shell · Nov 20, 2021

Johnny5k said:
Yep, It is just ~~physics~~ geometry. I believe it is called the HCD or Horizontal Component Distance. So your drop is based on this number and not the total range. You can calculate this with trigonometry, using the range and any other value of the right triangle created, with the correct formula.

Range finders will use the angle to calculate HCD (mine will), but if you know the exact elevation difference, you can calculate that way as well.

Shooting at a 45 degree angle should give you a drop that is equal to about ~~half~~ 70% of the normal drop, compared to the same distance to target on a flat range. Shooting up or down hill shouldn't matter much.

Cleaned that up a little for you. 70% because the cosine for 45o is 0.707.

If you want to work this solution exactly, as needed for true long range, we would use the 'scope offset method', which uses come-up dope vs simple distance correction and takes into account the difference in vantage point between the scope and bore axes.

For hunting distances, the Rifleman's Rule I stated above gets us close enough.

Park ranger · Nov 20, 2021

Put it in JBM ballistics to see the delta

Johnny5k · Nov 20, 2021

E.Shell said:
Cleaned that up a little for you. 70% because the cosine for 45o is 0.707.

If you want to work this solution exactly, as needed for true long range, we would use the 'scope offset method', which uses come-up dope vs simple distance correction and takes into account the difference in vantage point between the scope and bore axes.

For hunting distances, the Rifleman's Rule I stated above gets us close enough.

Yep, 100% correct. I forgot to take the sqaure root of the 2. Hadn't had my coffee yet.

I won't even quibble on the physics change, although we wouldn't need the geometry if it weren't for gravity, velocity, etc.

Striper69 · Nov 21, 2021

E.Shell said:
An uncorrected uphill/downhill shot will go high, because the horizontal distance isn't as great as the line-of-sight distance.
The cosine for your angle of departure/shot angle from horizontal is multiplied against the line-of-sight distance to arrive at a horizontal distance.
Elevation is calculated for the horizontal distance.
Wind is calculated for line-of sight distance.
This *probably* true, but that also depends on the rifle's trajectory curve. With a .22-250, it is minimal, with a .22 Long Rifle, it is drastic. Gotta do the math to know what YOU have to do.

I'm asking because a few years ago I was sitting on a hillside and was missing deer in a cornfield about 120 yards away. I kept thinking my scope was bad but it checked out OK on a range.

I was looking at the deer today on my spotting scope. There's a couple of nice does that are just what I want for the freezer. They sure look tiny though through the scopes/binocs.

Virgil Co.C · Nov 21, 2021

davsco said:
Best answer is to put a target out there and see where you're actually hitting, then u know for sure.

Tell ya , I’ve messed with it bow hunting . I’ve found I hit wear I am aiming . No up or down put pin on and that’s where it goes . Shot guns out of stand . Same thing . Cross hairs on squeeze , down goes Fraser . No up or down . There is a difference in distance once up in air but I have always practiced elevated. But I have never aimed high or low , well high if it’s out there .

E.Shell · Nov 21, 2021

Striper69 said:
I'm asking because a few years ago I was sitting on a hillside and was missing deer in a cornfield about 120 yards away. I kept thinking my scope was bad but it checked out OK on a range.

I was looking at the deer today on my spotting scope. There's a couple of nice does that are just what I want for the freezer. They sure look tiny though through the scopes/binocs.

Knowing the exact range is important, and if they still looked tiny through your optics, maybe they were further than 120. Assuming that is the correct distance, 120 yards is almost nothing to most deer rifles, unless you're shooting a straight-walled cartridge...

I'd be at least as inclined to think about your shooting techniques/position/stability as I would the slope.

Virgil Co.C said:
Tell ya , I’ve messed with it bow hunting . I’ve found I hit wear I am aiming . No up or down put pin on and that’s where it goes . Shot guns out of stand . Same thing . Cross hairs on squeeze , down goes Fraser . No up or down . There is a difference in distance once up in air but I have always practiced elevated. But I have never aimed high or low , well high if it’s out there .

The difference, no matter what you are shooting or how far, is the amount of drop being corrected for, the trajectory.

A flat trajectory, whether due to close distances like you speak of, or use of a flat-shooting rifle, minimizes this effect. There are plenty of instances where it is too short/flat to matter, as in your close-range situations, but are still plenty of situations where it DOES matter, and even for stuff like .300WinMags and 6.5 CMs.

Sundazes · Nov 21, 2021

I am by no means an expert as I have only shot long distance a couple times. I will bow to the immeasurable expertise of Eshell (should have taken your class when I had the chance), listen to him, not me.
That said, I have a Sig BDX scope/rangefinder combo. The range finder will calculates angle to the target as well as distance. As long as you have your ballistic information entered into the app, the correct dope (so to speak) is sent to the scope via blue tooth. The scope lights up the appropriate holdover on the reticle. So, you range it, check the scope, put the lit up dot on the target. It has been working great for me out to 700. Past that, you have to use a Kestral devices or do math. I don't like math.
Easy peasy, lazy too. But hey, I was talked into buying this scope and I am happy with it. The combo makes LD entry easy.

Ed if you ever feel like you want to do another class..... hint hint..wink wink...nod...nod...

Park ranger · Nov 21, 2021

Don't forget about wind. Whole new dimension

lazarus · Nov 21, 2021

E.Shell said:
Knowing the exact range is important, and if they still looked tiny through your optics, maybe they were further than 120. Assuming that is the correct distance, 120 yards is almost nothing to most deer rifles, unless you're shooting a straight-walled cartridge...

I'd be at least as inclined to think about your shooting techniques/position/stability as I would the slope.
The difference, no matter what you are shooting or how far, is the amount of drop being corrected for, the trajectory.

A flat trajectory, whether due to close distances like you speak of, or use of a flat-shooting rifle, minimizes this effect. There are plenty of instances where it is too short/flat to matter, as in your close-range situations, but are still plenty of situations where it DOES matter, and even for stuff like .300WinMags and 6.5 CMs.

Yeah 120yds is nothing. Even shooting at a 60 degree angle, would only change drop by an inch or two at anything like reasonable supersonic velocities.

If missing because of not calculating for angle, then you were likely shooting at more like 200+yds with something on the slower side, or 300+ with something on the faster side (by slow and fast, I mean like 2000fps vs 3000+fps). Of course the more severe the angle, the more it would throw that off.

Now misreading that the deer is at 200yds rather than 120 might be enough to throw you off.

Striper69 · Nov 22, 2021

Me and a young friend went to the spot today. A deer came out about 400 yards away but stayed behind a bunch of tree limbs and I couldn't get a clear shot. Another deer about 600 yards away (according to me buddy with a range finder) came out. He missed a couple of times so I moved and took a shot at that one. He said I missed high 'cause he saw the dust fly up behind it. I missed a couple of more shots at the other deer and I assume they went high. He got the deer after I was through. He shot it high on the rear neck. It dropped but was still alive when we got down to it.

I had just zeroed my rifle 6 inches high at 100 yards. I'll try again this week by aiming low on the deer. I'll also check it out at exactly 300 yards. The load is 150 grain Hornady SST bullet- 72.0 grain IMR 4350 powder and a magnum rifle primer.

Striper69 · Nov 22, 2021

E.Shell said:
Knowing the exact range is important, and if they still looked tiny through your optics, maybe they were further than 120. Assuming that is the correct distance, 120 yards is almost nothing to most deer rifles, unless you're shooting a straight-walled cartridge...

I'd be at least as inclined to think about your shooting techniques/position/stability as I would the slope.
The difference, no matter what you are shooting or how far, is the amount of drop being corrected for, the trajectory.

A flat trajectory, whether due to close distances like you speak of, or use of a flat-shooting rifle, minimizes this effect. There are plenty of instances where it is too short/flat to matter, as in your close-range situations, but are still plenty of situations where it DOES matter, and even for stuff like .300WinMags and 6.5 CMs.

I shot a doe a couple of years ago at about 200 yards at a pretty flat trajectory with my 6.5 Creedmoor. Double lung so I think I can shoot pretty good when the equipment is right. Shooting from up high throws a curve though.

Last year I got my first deer with my 270 at a little over 200 yards. Once again double lung. I got another one at probably a little over 200 yards with a 300 Short Magnum rifle (double lung).

Striper69 · Nov 22, 2021

lazarus said:
Yeah 120yds is nothing. Even shooting at a 60 degree angle, would only change drop by an inch or two at anything like reasonable supersonic velocities.

If missing because of not calculating for angle, then you were likely shooting at more like 200+yds with something on the slower side, or 300+ with something on the faster side (by slow and fast, I mean like 2000fps vs 3000+fps). Of course the more severe the angle, the more it would throw that off.

Now misreading that the deer is at 200yds rather than 120 might be enough to throw you off.

OK...have you ever taken a shot at a deer at 129 yards from a steep hill?

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