Just Comply???????

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  • StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    well, if you could show that most suspects only intend to run away from the cops and don't want to harm the cops, can I conclude that cops should lose the guns and/or batons? Do cops need to carry guns if they are only doing traffic stops? How far do we want to carry this "just comply" logic?

    officerdown.com , you tell me???

    oh by the way my district alone has killed 4 this year after being shot at. So considering my chances of getting into an encounter where a weapon is necessary are 3000x times more likely than that of the average citizen then you tell me??

    I really think your missing the point im dropping here. I'm not saying just comply. I'm advising you to THINK before you make any action . There is a reason Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    No unarmed robberies please fight back while yelling or run like hell. The chances of death in an unarmed robbery are significantly less but i do agree three kids with boots can inflict a lot of damage.

    Trust me in D.C. your not going to get locked up for defending yourself within reason. If someone comes up with a feather and says im the tickle monster prepare to be tickeled and you whip out an AK well come on thats not really defending yourself. Most of you have common sense and I trust you will make the right decision for the situation.

    I know the law on this pretty well (it is what I do for a living). Putting aside the feather scenario, I also know that the unarmed combat training that takes over in a situation when faced with superior numbers against you can be quite "definitive." A "lot of damage" can mean that the "kid" goes to the hospital or the morgue. Still not in the lockup? Sure, I may win eventually in front of a jury. Maybe, maybe not.
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    I think the way it would work out by itself, the only choice IS to comply. Otherwise you are shooting at someone running away from you. I don't think we always know who is going to rob us. It just happens. I PERSONALLY would comply (even if I am CCW), but not in a home setting. The reason for that is that it would be a live home invasion and if they know someone is at home and still decide to invade, then that it a deathwish. If they think no one is home but someone is, well, then we have a Darwin Award winner possibly.
     

    WeaponsCollector

    EXTREME GUN OWNER
    Mar 30, 2009
    12,120
    Southern MD
    The way I see it, if someone is attacking you, you must assume that they intend to harm you or even kill you regardless if they only want your money. Like if someone invades your home, you have every right to blow them away because your home is your castle and you must assume whoever just broke in didn't do it just to say hello. But every situation is different and you almost need to know by instinct how to react in any given situation. First time I got attacked/carjacked back in high school I complied with my crackhead attackers, after all I knew one of them from school and he seemed like a nice guy, but his "friends" certainly were not and I ended up getting carjacked, kidnapped, threatened(they said they had a gun but I never saw one), beaten, drugged, then dropped off in the middle of the ghetto.
    They could have killed me easily and there would have been nothing I could have done about it(5 against 1).
    Luckily thanks to an alert officer I got my car back a few days later and a couple hundred miles away full of clothes and trash. The second time I did not comply and ended up backing over both carjackers/attackers while they were beating up my friend. If I had complied with my attackers the second time who knows what would have happened, but I was not going to find out! Never again!
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    The way I see it, if someone is attacking you in any way, you must assume that they intend to harm you or even kill you regardless if they only want your money. Like if someone invades your home, you have every right to blow them away because your home is your castle and you must assume whoever just broke in didn't do it just to say hello. But every situation is different and you almost need to know by instinct how to react in any given situation.

    Instinct, IMHO, won't do. Training, preparation and practice of scenarios is the only answer. The NRA PPITH, and PPOTH, are essential first steps for that training. You fight how you train and if you don't train, you fight poorly.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    I know the law on this pretty well (it is what I do for a living). Putting aside the feather scenario, I also know that the unarmed combat training that takes over in a situation when faced with superior numbers against you can be quite "definitive." A "lot of damage" can mean that the "kid" goes to the hospital or the morgue. Still not in the lockup? Sure, I may win eventually in front of a jury. Maybe, maybe not.

    Who knows maybe you'll be the next zimmerman:lol2:

    But seriously the answer to the force question and how much to use is, "what is reasonably necessary" The public is held to the same standards as the police in this one. A good friend of mine was being jumped in college by 8 guys outside of a bar. He removed his "work knife" and 30 stitches later (for one of his attackers) it was deemed self defense.

    If you hit a guy while he is attempting to rob you and he just so happens to fall and hit his head on a curb chances are your not going to be charged with that because the amount of force you used was reasonable to repel an attack.

    The real necessity in any force used is not the actual forced used but the actions after. Did you notify police, EMS (if needed), and were you yelling for help.

    The biggest part is articulation to police. It doesn't look good if after an incident you express your happiness that your right hook killed that thug.
     

    WeaponsCollector

    EXTREME GUN OWNER
    Mar 30, 2009
    12,120
    Southern MD
    Instinct, IMHO, won't do. Training, preparation and practice of scenarios is the only answer. The NRA PPITH, and PPOTH, are essential first steps for that training. You fight how you train and if you don't train, you fight poorly.

    Unfortunately I can't fight(bad back) and have to rely on tools and instincts for self defense.
     

    J-Dog

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2012
    1,789
    I think that I would comply if my assailant had me dead to rights. But I also like to think that I would defend myself or escape if given the chance to do so.

    I can't trust anyone with the gumption to rob me to just take my stuff and run. That's putting a lot more faith in them than I care to. There's a chance that they would just take what they want and run, but there's also the chance that it could turn out like the Hi Fi Robbery of 1974.

    Fair warning, it's not a pleasant read.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    I think that I would comply if my assailant had me dead to rights. But I also like to think that I would defend myself or escape if given the chance to do so.

    I can't trust anyone with the gumption to rob me to just take my stuff and run. That's putting a lot more faith in them than I care to. There's a chance that they would just take what they want and run, but there's also the chance that it could turn out like the Hi Fi Robbery of 1974.

    Fair warning, it's not a pleasant read.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders

    thats not the norm at all for robberies.

    last year I was on scene for a 24 year old healthy, in shape, and completly capable girl walk down one step. Well she missed the step and broke her neck and died, ONE STEP.

    We all are aware of the what if's but if you want to play that game that far out start a new thread.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Who knows maybe you'll be the next zimmerman:lol2:

    But seriously the answer to the force question and how much to use is, "what is reasonably necessary" The public is held to the same standards as the police in this one. A good friend of mine was being jumped in college by 8 guys outside of a bar. He removed his "work knife" and 30 stitches later (for one of his attackers) it was deemed self defense.

    If you hit a guy while he is attempting to rob you and he just so happens to fall and hit his head on a curb chances are your not going to be charged with that because the amount of force you used was reasonable to repel an attack.

    The real necessity in any force used is not the actual forced used but the actions after. Did you notify police, EMS (if needed), and were you yelling for help.

    The biggest part is articulation to police. It doesn't look good if after an incident you express your happiness that your right hook killed that thug.

    VERY sound advice.......
     

    J-Dog

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2012
    1,789
    thats not the norm at all for robberies.

    last year I was on scene for a 24 year old healthy, in shape, and completly capable girl walk down one step. Well she missed the step and broke her neck and died, ONE STEP.

    We all are aware of the what if's but if you want to play that game that far out start a new thread.

    I never said it was the norm for roberies. Only that you don't know for sure what the guy doing the robbing is going to do once he's got what he wants.

    In my mind, what he's going to do once you hand over your wallet, or phone or whatever, is completely unknown. I don't think that I'd be willing to take the chance that this mugging/robbery/home invasion, isn't the one out of however many that will result in me or my family being dead at the end.

    I mean, heck, an aquaintance of mine was mugged in her own back yard by three guys. After she gave them what they wanted, including her phone (which she was talking on when they attacked her) they beat the hell out of her. They could have just run. They had her phone, her car keys, her wallet, basically everything of value that she had on her, and they still beat her into the hospital.

    I don't trust the kind of low life that's going to do that kind of thing to take what they want and run, and if you do, well then you have a lot more faith in humanity than I do sir. I will take whatever option gives me the best chance of going home to my wife and dogs, whether it's complying, running, or defending myself using whatever force I deem reasonable at the time.
     

    WeaponsCollector

    EXTREME GUN OWNER
    Mar 30, 2009
    12,120
    Southern MD
    You can still take these courses with a bad back, as long as you can stand, walk, kneel and shoot. Highly recommended.

    You know, that's a very good idea that I'll have to consider.
    I was 12 when I first shot handguns and started shooting bb guns when I was 8. Been hooked on shooting for most of my life but have never taken any classes.
     

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