York gun show having CCW holders clear their weapons

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  • Billman

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
    May 18, 2010
    1,273
    Sykesville, MD
    I watched a few people attempting to clear their weapons on the way in. Being swept by the muzzle while the two fat guys attempted to remove the magazine, made me very uncomfortable. Unfortunately, a negligent discharge will happen. Perhaps having this "clearing station" outside is a better idea.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Agreed with most/all the above. It's hypocritical and a really bad idea to ask people if they are carrying concealed; much less to ask them to unload their ccw gun.

    Where do people get off asking other people if they are carrying a concealed firearm? This is ridiculous, I don't even ask my closest friends, and know most if not all of them are carrying. It's probably a combination of ignorance or arrogance to ask such a question. If anyone ever asks you if you are carrying anything, look them in the face and say NO! [none of your business asshat!]. Never has the term 'don't ask, don't tell' been more applicable. You are carrying a concealed firearm concealed so others don't know you are armed; so if you had to use it, you have a tactical advantage, you can choose to get involved or not (hopefully), and the presence of a firearm doesn't bring undue attention to you. No cop, judge, lawyer or citizen knows all the thousands of laws; and you don't want to give anyone an excuse to give you grief. For example, how far away is the closest school to that York gun show? What's the law say about that? If you are a good-guy and doing the right thing, it shouldn't matter.

    Lastly (I guess this is something of a rant now); people should stop using 'insurance requires it' as an excuse. You got the insurance, so it's what YOU want. Otherwise, don't get insurance or get a better policy.

    I am enjoying reading others comments. Maybe if enough of us complained, York might wise up.

    Agreed. The "CCW Nazi" is up there with Walmart greeters/reciept nazis being a PITA, but ultimately I just ignore them and walk by. Still don't feel good about it, and along with a few other factors has cut down on the number of gun shows I've attended in the past. I have complained about the practice to the promoter in the past, maybe if enough do, it might help. At least is a bit better than preaching to the choir here. York is definitely the worst, the guy calls out everyone, asks the crowd, even seen him point to someone's side and say "is that a firearm, I need to check that" at random people. Other shows may have the same policy, but they don't have the same asshat, the Oaks has a couple officers that politely ask "do you have any firearms to check", same with the last couple times at Harrisburg, only the guy at York seems to love what he does.
    Welcome To Appalachian Promotions
    Contact Information:
    Telephone: 717-697-3088 Fax: 717-697-2470
    7328 Wertzville Road Carlisle, Pa 17015

    Email: General Info: AppPromotions@aol.com
    Webmaster: AppPromotions@aol.com
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,343
    I'm sure I'm not the only one that has seen a lot of the vendors at these gun shows walking around with holstered handgun and a mag inserted into it.

    Can the insurance people clue me in on the process of their special exemption?
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Poking around gun show insurance found this from the NRA, might be who the shows use, and the application they fill out. doesn't say one way or the other how it affects rates or acceptance, but might be good to call them and clarify their stance on question d (Are loaded firearms, magazines or clips prohibited on the premises for anyone other than police, law enforcement or hired security?). Adding question h. to the mix complicates things, may imply a misunderstanding with the prior question(Other than police, law enforcement, or hired security, are concealed weapons prohibited for anyone without a concealed carry permit? ). Might be worth a few calls to see if they can clarify it, or are willing to change the wording to "are loaded firearms, magazines or clips prohibited on the premises for anyone other than police, law enforcement, hired security, or lawful citizen carry". Might just be something overlooked for a long time, or a reason for members to petition the NRA.

    https://mynrainsurance.com/business-insurance/gun-show-insurance
     

    ShafTed

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 21, 2013
    2,213
    Juuuuust over the line
    I have seen the same rules at the Chantilly show, so it's not just the one promoter at York. Maybe insurance, I don't know, but if so better insurance is definitely needed. (Does the NRA self-insure? I have no idea.) It is indeed a very stupid rule, it does seem to me that any insurance company that knows anything about risk analysis should know better. The requirement of numerous people of unknowable experience and/or qualifications handling a loaded gun in a public setting is going to guarantee that there will eventually be a claim against that insurance.
     

    CrueChief

    Cocker Dad/RIP Bella
    Apr 3, 2009
    2,999
    Napolis-ish
    So is the moral of the story to just keep your mouth shut, gun concealed, eyes forward and mind your own business while entering these PA shows? Or is this a legitimate worry?
     

    Ironnewt

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 24, 2012
    1,416
    Harford County
    I have been carrying concealed for a VERY long time. The last time some discovered I was carrying was when I gave my wife my coat to cover up as the weather changed. The few people who saw my gun also saw my badge and handcuffs. No one bitched, no one called 9-1-1. If I decide to go to this show I either will not carry (not Likely) or not mention it and just walk in. I understand "Their show, Their rules" but what about the cash I'm carrying to the show, or are dealers going to start taking checks or credit cards w/o adding a 3% surcharge? I will never leave a gun in a car as it's just an invitation to have it stolen. , Just my 2 cents worth.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    At least they now have a clearing device.


    Major issue will be hearing loss.

    This must be done outside not in the vestibule. And with a larger clearing Device ..


    At oaks. The local police would supervise. That was helpful and they tied off the action so it was visibly safe..


    I saw no one actually clear a weapon while I was there... But I do think it's worth bringing this up with the promoter.


    Bottom line ..It's insurance related I bet. There was a full blown ND with injury to a customer at one of the Harrisburg shows a few years back.. not surprising .


    If firearms are not allowed...It just means the insurance will disclaim liability.. it does not mean anyone is safer.. it's only about making sure the promoter, venue,and underwriter are protected..

    It will not change... But...The method of clearing is definitely unsafe...

    Perhaps that can change..
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,731
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Many years ago, when the Oaks show was in Valley Forge, they had the same policy but did not have a snail drum. They had two discharges that I know of and I was at both shows when they occurred. One happened about 20 feet from me. :eek: I believe sometime after the second one, they stopped the practice of having people unload.

    It is also a bad idea because some people will go back to their car and leave the gun in the car. Guess what, bad guys find out about this kind of stuff and good bye gun. :sad20:
     

    basscat

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 23, 2012
    1,390
    Agreed with most/all the above. It's hypocritical and a really bad idea to ask people if they are carrying concealed; much less to ask them to unload their ccw gun.

    Where do people get off asking other people if they are carrying a concealed firearm? This is ridiculous, I don't even ask my closest friends, and know most if not all of them are carrying. It's probably a combination of ignorance or arrogance to ask such a question. If anyone ever asks you if you are carrying anything, look them in the face and say NO! [none of your business asshat!]. Never has the term 'don't ask, don't tell' been more applicable. You are carrying a concealed firearm concealed so others don't know you are armed; so if you had to use it, you have a tactical advantage, you can choose to get involved or not (hopefully), and the presence of a firearm doesn't bring undue attention to you. No cop, judge, lawyer or citizen knows all the thousands of laws; and you don't want to give anyone an excuse to give you grief. For example, how far away is the closest school to that York gun show? What's the law say about that? If you are a good-guy and doing the right thing, it shouldn't matter.

    Lastly (I guess this is something of a rant now); people should stop using 'insurance requires it' as an excuse. You got the insurance, so it's what YOU want. Otherwise, don't get insurance or get a better policy.

    I am enjoying reading others comments. Maybe if enough of us complained, York might wise up.


    This exactly! Insurance is a cop out. Seems like some pro 2a organizations are no better than other businesses that prohibit concealed carry.
     

    lee2

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Oct 8, 2007
    19,012
    bottom line you are paying admission to their event. if you choose not to abide by their rules you may choose to depart.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    This exactly! Insurance is a cop out. Seems like some pro 2a organizations are no better than other businesses that prohibit concealed carry.

    The NRA's own gun show insurance application
    https://mynrainsurance.com/getmedia/95bcf4ee-e768-4cc1-bab5-5d85334ce6cc/2016-Gun-Show-Application-9-16

    I wrote a letter, have written before about the same thing, usually get a polite, but generic response. The NRA usually values the opinions of their membership, feel free to write your own letter or use whatever part of mine you want, if it gets enough attention the practice might actually end.

    https://contact.nra.org/contact-us.aspx

    I wanted to contact you about the York, PA gun show, and more specifically a disturbing practice I hope you can help correct. The front door guard repeatedly asked people in line if they had a firearm, pointed to the waist of seemingly random people and asked if a person was carrying, said that ALL firearms had to be checked weither or not they were carry guns. Some simply got out of line and left, possibly disgusted by the policy, or to leave their firearm in their car as a target for theft. When anyone who was lawfully carrying concealed stepped forward, or was discovered, they were told to unload, at which point they drew, muzzled several people in the large crowd, and after ejecting a chambered round and the mag, dry fired the pistol, then it was zip-tied and handed back. After entering the show, some headed right for the bathroom, or a spot in the lobby to cut the zip tie, reload, and reholster. I personally walked right in with my lawful concealed firearm remaining concealed, as I suspect most others did.

    When I asked about this incredibly dangerous and pointless practice, I was told it was an insurance requirement, upon researching, I found the NRA's gun show insurance application. Where question d. and k. seem to imply the practice of employing guards to seek out, discover, and disarm lawful concealed carry is supported by the NRA. Question h. though does seem to indicate lawful citizen carry is permitted. I understand the need to check firearms brought for sale, trade or to have services performed, and I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the appearance of outright hypocrisy by the gun community and NRA, especially given that most vendors are open carrying, it gives the impression of "rights for the privileged only". It also creates a dangerous system where citizens lawfully exercising their 2A rights are sought out by security, outed, and forced to disarm in a dangerous and humiliating way. They are then forced to choose between remaining defenseless while transporting large sums of cash or valuable purchases, or loading their firearm and re-arming a soon as they enter the show.

    This needs to stop, and I doubt I will attend another gun show till it does. Most other shows in the area simply ask "do you have any firearms to check", and these problems don't happen. If it is simply a matter of signage or clarifying that it does not apply to lawfully carried defensive firearms, then I support that. If the policy of prohibiting lawful citizens from carrying in this instance is an NRA policy through your insurance procedures, then it must stop now.
     

    protegeV

    Ready to go
    Apr 3, 2011
    46,880
    TX
    Disarming ccw at the gun show here is largely a dog and pony show. If you walk in with a rifle to sell, obviously they're going to check it and zip tie it. If you walk in with a properly concealed pistol, no one is going to stop you.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Disarming ccw at the gun show here is largely a dog and pony show. If you walk in with a rifle to sell, obviously they're going to check it and zip tie it. If you walk in with a properly concealed pistol, no one is going to stop you.

    Not necessarily. They do randomly ask you point blank, "Are you carrying?" My guess is if they catch you not telling the truth, they will ask you to leave immediately.

    I have seen them ask a few folks to lift their jacket too. So, I think they can do more if somehow they find out you are carrying.

    The regulars know the routine and don't bring in their weapon. Like I've said, I leave mine at my son's house. I would never leave it in my truck while parked there.
     

    abu Haqiqa

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Feb 10, 2017
    38
    >> The NRA's own gun show insurance application https://mynrainsurance.com/getmedia/...plication-9-16

    "Insurance Program Administered by Lockton Affinity, LLC" - That's likely the source of the issue, not the NRA. I imagine there aren't a whole lot of providers willing to issue policies for gun shows, and I imagine there aren't many venues that will allow a large show (gun or otherwise) without a suitable policy in place.
     

    protegeV

    Ready to go
    Apr 3, 2011
    46,880
    TX
    Not necessarily. They do randomly ask you point blank, "Are you carrying?" My guess is if they catch you not telling the truth, they will ask you to leave immediately.

    I have seen them ask a few folks to lift their jacket too. So, I think they can do more if somehow they find out you are carrying.

    The regulars know the routine and don't bring in their weapon. Like I've said, I leave mine at my son's house. I would never leave it in my truck while parked there.

    I'm talking about the gun shows by me in TX. ;)

    Never been to a PA gun show.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    This exactly! Insurance is a cop out. Seems like some pro 2a organizations are no better than other businesses that prohibit concealed carry.

    Not necessarily. They do randomly ask you point blank, "Are you carrying?" My guess is if they catch you not telling the truth, they will ask you to leave immediately.

    I have seen them ask a few folks to lift their jacket too. So, I think they can do more if somehow they find out you are carrying.

    The regulars know the routine and don't bring in their weapon. Like I've said, I leave mine at my son's house. I would never leave it in my truck while parked there.

    I carry everywhere I can up here, plenty of places, gun show included have BS policies about it, or might ask, and I'll reply "nope" every time. The day they want to search me or install metal detectors for their BS is the last time I'll go to their stupid show and work to fight it harder than any other gun ban. I do like going to gun shows, and I hate when the news, politicians, or random libs I might interact with get to point out a glaring hypocrisy, or justification for them to ban firearms in one instance or another. So I'll bitch to the promoter , NRA and insurer about it now, so hopefully it doesn't get any worse.
     

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