Mass killings and mental health

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  • CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    This morning I read this article

    China knife attack: 18 injured in mass stabbing, suspect shot and arrested

    and was immediately drawn to this line:

    The police microblog cited family members as saying that the suspect, Wang Yunwei, had formerly been hospitalized for mental health issues.

    It seems to me that a majority of mass killings are performed by people with mental health issues. You hear it time and time again. Here are a few results from a quick Google search:

    36 School shooters/school related violence committed by those under the influence of psychiatric drugs

    Every mass shooting over last 20 years has one thing in common... and it's not guns

    Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings

    Big list of drug-induced killers

    Mass Murders, Psychiatric Drugs, And Gun Control

    It's the Drugs, Stupid!

    Mass Murderers and Psychiatric Drugs

    Mental illness is a big problem in America, and a big part of the problem is the stigma associated with it. People today are not afraid to talk about STDs or high cholesterol, but don't want to talk about mental illness. This needs to change. We as gun owners need to be more proactive and let our lawmakers know over and over that it's the drugs, not the guns, that make normal people become mass murderers. The first article I linked about the mass stabbing in China shows that this isn't just an American issue, that worldwide in all cultures mental illness is the main motivating factor behind most mass killings. We need a better system for mental health issues in America, and we need to end the stigma associated with mental illness that prevents so many people from going to get treatment until it is too late.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf
    Mass killings are a statistical anomaly that account for a very small portion of preventable deaths each year. Even homicides(justified and otherwise) only make up a small fraction of deaths, at about 16,000 in 2014. Of those, 11,000 were by firearms. Compare that to preventable deaths due to mental illness....suicides (43,000), drugs (50,000), and alcohol (31,000) and mental healthcare suddenly becomes a very big deal. Of suicides, slightly less than half( 21,386 firearm vs 21,440) were done with firearms...so only focusing on firearms ignores the majority of suicide attempts while not addressing the human cause of the suicide.

    I think it's important as well to be familiar with these numbers when someone talks about imposing government infringements on our 2A rights to curb "preventable deaths". If we target improving mental healthcare rather than targeting an inanimate object, we can have a direct positive impact on roughly 125,000 mental health related deaths EACH YEAR. It's also dangerous to attach the mental healthcare argument to firearms, because then we begin to get calls for the arbitrary stripping of 2A rights for anyone "with a mental condition". The term suddenly becomes nebulous enough to apply in an arbitrary and capricious manner without due process. So, remember to completely divorce the preventable death issue from firearms completely and redirect it to improving our mental healthcare in the nation... a push that everyone should easily be able to get behind... especially democrats that are constantly bringing up healthcare "as a human right".
     

    Drmsparks

    Old School Rifleman
    Jun 26, 2007
    8,441
    PG county
    Also per the good series at Mother Jones.....less than 4% of the mentally ill are violent. 96% are not. Would you strip them of their rights just to catch the 4%?

    People like the aurora shooter who were clearly identified and showed violent fantasy's before his crime should have been identified and removed. That is one place where we can make improvements.
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    I'm not saying to strip the mentally ill of their 2A rights. I'm saying we need a campaign to convince the politicians that it's our mental health system in America that is responsible for mass killings, it's not the guns.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,876
    Mass killers are disproportionately bat shit crazy.

    Bat Shit crazy people are prescribed various psycopharmalogical drugs more so than general population, or those with minor issues.

    But which are cause, and which symptoms?
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Mass killers are disproportionately bat shit crazy.

    Bat Shit crazy people are prescribed various psycopharmalogical drugs more so than general population, or those with minor issues.

    But which are cause, and which symptoms?



    It's the mental illness, not the treatment.


    Our mental health system sucks. Good luck finding anything resembling adequate treatment if you need it.
     

    Rab1515

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 29, 2014
    2,081
    Calvert
    And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.
     

    KJackson

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 3, 2017
    8,613
    Carroll County
    My wife is one of those who could lose her 2A rights due to having been treated for metal issues. What was her issue that makes her so dangerous if she were to have a gun? She has been treated, in-patient, a few times for Anorexia and Bulimia. That is classified as a mental disorder and she was treated in the psych ward of Mercy Hospital. In all the news that I have read, I don't think that I have ever heard of an eating disorder patient going on a shooting rampage.
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.

    This.

    Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

    He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

    We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Mental health in this country is not quite a generation from jamming ice picks in eyesockets and inducing seizures and comas with little if any proof it actually helped. Ethical treatment is in it's infancy, and the public stigma is horrific, until that changes, society will suffer the symptoms of unchecked mental illness. In many cases merely seeking treatment is not all that different from walking into a police station and confessing to a crime, people can loose their rights, their freedom, jobs, families, finances and much more, so it's not surprising that people will avoid treatment until something terrible happens. People are willing to walk, run, and dump ice water on themselves to raise awareness and money for "honorable" diseases, and those who suffer from them, but people with most common mental problems like addiction, depression etc, are seen as anything from weak to contemptible, not normal people suffering from a preventable and treatable disease.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    Mental health in this country is not quite a generation from jamming ice picks in eyesockets and inducing seizures and comas with little if any proof it actually helped. Ethical treatment is in it's infancy, and the public stigma is horrific, until that changes, society will suffer the symptoms of unchecked mental illness. In many cases merely seeking treatment is not all that different from walking into a police station and confessing to a crime, people can loose their rights, their freedom, jobs, families, finances and much more, so it's not surprising that people will avoid treatment until something terrible happens. People are willing to walk, run, and dump ice water on themselves to raise awareness and money for "honorable" diseases, and those who suffer from them, but people with most common mental problems like addiction, depression etc, are seen as anything from weak to contemptible, not normal people suffering from a preventable and treatable disease.

    Yup
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.

    Mental health issues are stigmatised in many ways, and in populations other than firearms ownership.

    Those who require an FAA physical, for example - which encompasses most pilots to one degree or another, airline types needing medical recertification every six months - are loath to seek a physician's care, or to take antidepressant drugs, which would perforce have to be revealed at that time. Workarounds for pilots experiencing difficulties in their personal lives involve seeking help from religious counselors, rather than revealing issues to a physician, which would have to be reported, possibly resulting in losing their livelihood.

    Until problems resulting from brain physiology can be treated without labeling the patient as a pariah, this issue is not going away.
     

    teawhy

    Member
    Mar 24, 2017
    82
    Southern Maryland
    This is an important topic that deserves attention. My first thought is will those who suffer from mental illness ever receive real, effective care with large pharmaceutical companies being such a central part of modern medicine, and politics for that matter? I'll have to do more research, but I bet there is a correlation between big pharma political contributions, drug sales, and the aforementioned acts of violence. Thanks, CrazySanMan, for a good starting point.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    The true problem, once you start looking at mental health issues, is where the line is drawn. I know people with bipolar 2 that I wouldn't trust with a piece of paper, let alone a firearm. But of the same token, I know people with bipolar 2 that are normal and are not affected by the bipolar, due to taking meds and staying on top of things. Where do you draw that line? You can't strip somebody's rights on the basis of mental health, if they have no violent tendencies, or haven't gone through due process.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    The true problem, once you start looking at mental health issues, is where the line is drawn. I know people with bipolar 2 that I wouldn't trust with a piece of paper, let alone a firearm. But of the same token, I know people with bipolar 2 that are normal and are not affected by the bipolar, due to taking meds and staying on top of things. Where do you draw that line? You can't strip somebody's rights on the basis of mental health, if they have no violent tendencies, or haven't gone through due process.

    Where do you draw it for anyone? Other demographics have a disproportionately high rate of committing violent crimes. If you're 18 and hanging out with a bunch of gang members, but haven't committed a crime yet, do you lose your rights for what people think you're likely to do?
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Where do you draw it for anyone? Other demographics have a disproportionately high rate of committing violent crimes. If you're 18 and hanging out with a bunch of gang members, but haven't committed a crime yet, do you lose your rights for what people think you're likely to do?
    I'm pretty sure we are on the same page with the examples we have used.

    You are right, where is that line in the sand?
     

    20ravens52

    Active Member
    Mar 21, 2016
    138
    Long Green
    This.

    Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

    He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

    We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.

    Sorry to hear that man, sounds like a rough situation. Hope everything works out okay for him.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    This.

    Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

    He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

    We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.


    The fact that your son knew he was having problems, and was willing and able to present them to you and seek help, is a good indicator of a positive outcome. Not to say it will be a walk in the park, however.
     

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