Is Now the Time to SBR your HBAR ARs?

danb · Feb 9, 2019

Speaking of getting form 1 approved, the length of time even if submitted today likely puts you past Oct 1 when any new law goes into effect. You cannot build the SBR until the approval comes back. Which means if the law is enacted, it would make the current configuration illegal for some length of time between Oct 1 and tax stamp approval. Submitting the Form puts the ATF and Chief Law Enforcement Officer, Colonel Pallozzi MSP on notice you have an illegal rifle for some period of time. CLEO could plausibly object to Form 1 approval. AG Frosh has CLEO in his pocket. So there is that.

Muleskinner · Feb 9, 2019

I cannot scream this loud enough REFUSE TO COMPLY!!! By changing your rifle"'s configuration to comply or "get around" their "law" is still defacto compliance. .

dreadpirate · Feb 9, 2019

danb said:
Speaking of getting form 1 approved, the length of time even if submitted today likely puts you past Oct 1 when any new law goes into effect. You cannot build the SBR until the approval comes back. Which means if the law is enacted, it would make the current configuration illegal for some length of time between Oct 1 and tax stamp approval. Submitting the Form puts the ATF and Chief Law Enforcement Officer, Colonel Pallozzi MSP on notice you have an illegal rifle for some period of time. CLEO could plausibly object to Form 1 approval. AG Frosh has CLEO in his pocket. So there is that.

Interesting.

dreadpirate · Feb 9, 2019

outrider58 said:
It may come a time when one might consider moving things out of state. Converting to SBR would make this very cumbersome.

And if DanB is correct, may not help anyways.

Lloyd · Feb 9, 2019

Aventus said:
Instead of leaving the state, maybe we should all put on yellow vests and head to Annapolis!!!

100% Agree.

ironpony · Feb 9, 2019

montoya32 said:
Not sure why ANYONE would be discussing contorting their firearms to comply with these laws. They can pound sand or try to take them.

Tim, that isn't that what the Glen Burnie guy tried? (1302)

Muleskinner said:
I cannot scream this loud enough REFUSE TO COMPLY!!! By changing your rifle"'s configuration to comply or "get around" their "law" is still defacto compliance. .

I hate to keep bringing up the Geln Burnie occurrence but weren't these the last words of that poor dude?

They want guns and are getting them. Checking atf wait times now.

rbird7282 · Feb 9, 2019

Not converting, not complying.

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lazarus · Feb 9, 2019

danb said:
Speaking of getting form 1 approved, the length of time even if submitted today likely puts you past Oct 1 when any new law goes into effect. You cannot build the SBR until the approval comes back. Which means if the law is enacted, it would make the current configuration illegal for some length of time between Oct 1 and tax stamp approval. Submitting the Form puts the ATF and Chief Law Enforcement Officer, Colonel Pallozzi MSP on notice you have an illegal rifle for some period of time. CLEO could plausibly object to Form 1 approval. AG Frosh has CLEO in his pocket. So there is that.

No it doesn’t. A lower is NOT an enumerated banned firearm in this case. It can be built in to legal configurations and a 16+” upper is not going to make an SBR. So basically you submit the form 1 and wait. You don’t build ANYTHING until it comes back. Once the form 1 comes back you can assemble your SBR.

Your 16+” uppers likely need to stick around for a pistol, or be gotten rid of. Or at least have the barrels removed and wait for your <16” build when you have your form 1 back.

If it is past October 1 and you are still waiting, the upper comes off. Maybe the barrel(s) come off the upper also. You get your form 1 back, your less than 16” barrel goes on one of your uppers and you put it together and engrave the NFA serial number on the lower.

lazarus · Feb 9, 2019

To repeat, nothing in this change would make your lowers illegal. It may not be smart to have 16” or longer barreled receivers sitting around (unless you have a pre 10/1/2013 lower sitting around). But the lowers are fine. If never built, they can be a pistol. If built as a rifle originally, they could still be made in to an SBR some day. Or have an upper on there that makes the whole thing not an AR-15 (like a 6.5 grendel build. Or if you think it needs less parts compatibility, a straight pull bolt design with a welded shut gas block or barrel gas port).

ATF does the constructive possession thing. Maryland could? Maybe? So having everything around that makes an illegal configuration and you have no ability to make a legal one, you be screwed. So having your 20” HBAR upper sitting around may not be smart. And of course if it is assembled in to a lower it is a banned configuration.

But a lower by itself is not illegal.

So in submitting a form 1, you are getting ATF permission to build a Federal and Maryland legal configuration. And once approved you can then do that.

I am fighting this, but if it goes through, my 16” and longer barrels would go. I’d probably get a 12.5” barrel and slap it on my pistol lower and submit a form 1 and my rifle lower I’d SBR and look for a 14.5-15” barrel to go in to my other upper.

Do I want to comply? Hell no. But unfortunately I have too much to lose with young kids. I’ll fight by donating to pro gun rights causes, voting, emailing, calling and showing up when I can.

teratos · Feb 9, 2019

danb said:
Speaking of getting form 1 approved, the length of time even if submitted today likely puts you past Oct 1 when any new law goes into effect. You cannot build the SBR until the approval comes back. Which means if the law is enacted, it would make the current configuration illegal for some length of time between Oct 1 and tax stamp approval. Submitting the Form puts the ATF and Chief Law Enforcement Officer, Colonel Pallozzi MSP on notice you have an illegal rifle for some period of time. CLEO could plausibly object to Form 1 approval. AG Frosh has CLEO in his pocket. So there is that.

E form 1’s have been being approved in 3-4 weeks.

danb · Feb 9, 2019

Sure, the lowers are still legal. But you point out all the problems between oct 1 and when your stamp comes in, like constructive possession of an upper or potentially the parts.

And my tin foil is loose, and MSP makes up whatever law they want after the fact, maybe they attempt to apply this ban to all AR stripped lowers. If you think im wrong, show me where it says AR lowers should be 77r'd at all to begin with. They treat stripped AR lowers as regulated firearms even though its just a lower. Or that an SBR needs to comply with 29" OAL requirement.

teratos said:
E form 1’s have been being approved in 3-4 weeks.

Well, there is some good news.

outrider58 · Feb 9, 2019

danb said:
Sure, the lowers are still legal. But you point out all the problems between oct 1 and when your stamp comes in, like constructive possession of an upper or potentially the parts.

And my tin foil is loose, and MSP makes up whatever law they want after the fact, maybe they attempt to apply this ban to all AR stripped lowers. If you think im wrong, show me where it says AR lowers should be 77r'd at all to begin with. They treat stripped AR lowers as regulated firearms even though its just a lower. Or that an SBR needs to comply with 29" OAL requirement.

Well, there is some good news.

By simply slipping off the stock, you now have a pistol lower.

I have pistol AR 15s
I have SBRed AR 15s
I have rifle and carbine AR 15s
I have bins full of AR 15 parts, including spare AR 15 stocks

Constructive possession? Schmeh!

The only worry is if someone is stupid enough to be driving around with an AR 15 pistol and an un-attached stock with them.

randomuser · Feb 9, 2019

Muleskinner said:
I cannot scream this loud enough REFUSE TO COMPLY!!! By changing your rifle"'s configuration to comply or "get around" their "law" is still defacto compliance. .

Do people really want to make their guns into this abomination?

seriously, no. California did that, but I expect that from those people. I'd hope we are better than that.

Good luck actually trying to use your ar in that horrible configuration. but then again, I think that is what they want.

lazarus · Feb 9, 2019

outrider58 said:
By simply slipping off the stock, you now have a pistol lower.

I have pistol AR 15s
I have SBRed AR 15s
I have rifle and carbine AR 15s
I have bins full of AR 15 parts, including spare AR 15 stocks

Constructive possession? Schmeh!

The only worry is if someone is stupid enough to be driving around with an AR 15 pistol and an un-attached stock with them.

Exactly.

Don’t go too paranoid. Follow the letter if you need to and remove the uppers from any lowers that are post 10/2013 by 10/2019 if this law pushes forward. If you are ridiculously paranoid get rid of any 16+” barrels if you don’t have any pre 10/2013 lowers.

Police aren’t going to raid you. If you are worried about getting in trouble with the law or paranoid, just ditch the 16” or longer barrels. Keep all of the other parts. File the form 1 before 10/2019 and likely it’ll be approved long before 10/2019 if you do it in April.

dreadpirate · Feb 9, 2019

randomuser said:
Do people really want to make their guns into this abomination?

seriously, no. California did that, but I expect that from those people. I'd hope we are better than that.

Good luck actually trying to use your ar in that horrible configuration. but then again, I think that is what they want.

Whose talking about this as an option? Not me.

randomuser · Feb 9, 2019

dreadpirate said:
Whose talking about this as an option? Not me.

Not me friend. That thing is not a useful gun as far as I'm concerned.

Defense Rifle · Feb 9, 2019

randomuser said:
Do people really want to make their guns into this abomination?

seriously, no. California did that, but I expect that from those people. I'd hope we are better than that.

Good luck actually trying to use your ar in that horrible configuration. but then again, I think that is what they want.

That looks like a trans-gendered AR.

randomuser · Feb 9, 2019

Defense Rifle said:
That looks like a trans-gendered AR.

Even that bruce jenner gun wont be allowed in MD. California has nothing on us.

babalou · Feb 10, 2019

AR Storm?

fidelity · Feb 10, 2019

There are simpler solutions than going the SBR route, but why discuss them now, in a public part of the forum, when legislation is still being crafted and might be modified to capture the work arounds? Let's first fight and see what they modify. They modified quite a bit in FSA 2013 (and the HQL requirement might have also died if O'Malley didn't lean hard on legislators back then).

I personally don't think we'll have a ban of HBARs purchased in the Oct 2013 to Sept 2019 period (and in fact would encourage Marylanders who don't have an AR to buy an HBAR rifle or have the lower on hand for a build before Oct 2019 - we'll of course know more definitively after the legislative session). I also think that the current version of the proposed long gun qualification license is going to run into a lot of issues and they may end up modifying their posture a bit (like no license, but no face to face long gun transfers, restricting purchases to once a month, with a week delay, and requiring a 77R type of check - yeah, would still suck, big time).

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Is Now the Time to SBR your HBAR ARs?

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