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  • Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    I’ll bet you’re right

    And just how does one differentiate between a "trigger spring" and a small helical coil of music wire that is similar in size to a part used in some firearm somewhere in the world. Will replacement springs for numerous mechanisms now disappear from hardware stores because they could be used to increase the rate of fire of some firearm?

    Prosecutors may not usually file cases they can not win but there are many instances where people have been prosecuted for innocent mistakes.

    Just something to think about:
    http://www.ballpoint-pen-springs.com/
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    He didn't say that. I was there . . .

    Look, folks. I share your concern, which is why I submitted my own letter (have not heard back). But, I'm also realistic and I've been doing the law thing for 20 years. Yes, there have been instances across the country in which a wacky prosecutor did a wacky thing, but, by and large, (i) prosecutors don't bring cases that they know they won't likely win, (ii) prosecutors don't bring cases if they think the court might sanction them, and (iii) courts tend to read the law in a practical, common sense manner. Courts don't "go out on a limb all the time." Oil ain't a device. No one is going to get arrested for having a can of Rem Oil. There's too much chicken little here.

    Would you tell that to Marilyn Mosby. Seems there were a few police officers who would argue that point with you.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Does anyone know the schedule for next steps? I'm sure it has been posted here but this thread is so long. Any idea when the judge will rule on the State's motion to dismiss? I have to believe that he will deny that. It seems to me that this case should be one decided on motions. Not much fact finding to do here.

    There is no time for the judge to decide. Guess? 3-6 months. As to motions: Agreed. Let's see what he does. We decide then.
     
    Last edited:

    GUNSnROTORS

    nude member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 7, 2013
    3,620
    hic sunt dracones
    The federal judge in this case disagrees, and stated that the device is so vague it could include oil.

    He didn't say that. I was there . . .

    Look, folks. I share your concern, which is why I submitted my own letter (have not heard back). But, I'm also realistic and I've been doing the law thing for 20 years. Yes, there have been instances across the country in which a wacky prosecutor did a wacky thing, but, by and large, (i) prosecutors don't bring cases that they know they won't likely win, (ii) prosecutors don't bring cases if they think the court might sanction them, and (iii) courts tend to read the law in a practical, common sense manner. Courts don't "go out on a limb all the time." Oil ain't a device. No one is going to get arrested for having a can of Rem Oil. There's too much chicken little here.

    From esqappellate's courtroom summary post:
    At the hearing, Judge Bredar remarked on the extreme vagueness of the State’s law as he demonstrated how GUN OIL being used to lubricate A BOLT-ACTION RIFLE to "increase" the "rate of fire" of the rifle because the action could be worked more efficiently, meaning the trigger could be manually activated faster than it could before using the GUN OIL. The judge thus warned the State that he had real problems with how vague the statute was. In short, we don't know what is covered by this language covering a "device" that increases the "rate of fire" and neither does the State, the judge or anyone else. The potential for arbitrary enforcement is quite real.
     

    Not_an_outlaw

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 26, 2013
    4,679
    Prince Frederick, MD
    He didn't say that. I was there . . .

    Look, folks. I share your concern, which is why I submitted my own letter (have not heard back). But, I'm also realistic and I've been doing the law thing for 20 years. Yes, there have been instances across the country in which a wacky prosecutor did a wacky thing, but, by and large, (i) prosecutors don't bring cases that they know they won't likely win, (ii) prosecutors don't bring cases if they think the court might sanction them, and (iii) courts tend to read the law in a practical, common sense manner. Courts don't "go out on a limb all the time." Oil ain't a device. No one is going to get arrested for having a can of Rem Oil. There's too much chicken little here.

    Have you been paying attention? I saw a gun owner at the HPRB give a dissertation on how he was arrested and his gun was confiscated due to his permit being incorrectly listed as invalid or canceled. When the police found the error, they then charged him for being outside his permit restrictions. I don't remember how the charges were finally dropped, but it was a compelling testimony.

    I used to live in Saint Mary's County and the State's Attorney was charged with violating the first amendment because he had the sheriff's deputies buy up all the local newspapers because it was going to discuss his conviction of raping a girl in his younger years. I'm not sure many of these State's Attorneys are honorable people. I've had my own run in with several from the St. Mary's office and I've had issues with several.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I've known lots of prosecutors during my 33 years at the Dept. of Justice. Most are good, hardworking folks who try to do the right thing. And I've known bad ones. All prosecutors are merely human. All prosecutors wield enormous discretionary power over who to charge, when to charge and what to charge. Personally, I would not trust *any* prosecutor with my life or my reputation. And the law says I don't have to:

    McDonnell v. United States, 136 S. Ct. 2355, 2373–74 (2016) (noting that “we cannot construe a criminal statute on the assumption that the Government will ‘use it responsibly’”) (quoting United States v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 480-81 (2010) (“We would not uphold an unconstitutional statute merely because the Government promised to use it responsibly.”)); Wollschlaeger v. Governor, Fla., 848 F.3d 1293, 1322 (11th Cir. 2017) (“But we cannot find clarity in a wholly ambiguous statute simply by relying on the benevolence or good faith of those enforcing it.”); Lewis v. Alexander, 685 F.3d 325, 341 (3d Cir. 2012), cert. denied, 568 U.S. 1123 (2013) (“to the extent the agency is pleading for a chance to interpret the statute more leniently than the statute’s text might suggest, we question whether we can credit such an interpretation”).
     

    Rab1515

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 29, 2014
    2,081
    Calvert
    Have you been paying attention? I saw a gun owner at the HPRB give a dissertation on how he was arrested and his gun was confiscated due to his permit being incorrectly listed as invalid or canceled. When the police found the error, they then charged him for being outside his permit restrictions. I don't remember how the charges were finally dropped, but it was a compelling testimony.

    I used to live in Saint Mary's County and the State's Attorney was charged with violating the first amendment because he had the sheriff's deputies buy up all the local newspapers because it was going to discuss his conviction of raping a girl in his younger years. I'm not sure many of these State's Attorneys are honorable people. I've had my own run in with several from the St. Mary's office and I've had issues with several.

    That sounds like some story's I would love to hear, but in a less public venue.
     

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,735
    Have you been paying attention? I saw a gun owner at the HPRB give a dissertation on how he was arrested and his gun was confiscated due to his permit being incorrectly listed as invalid or canceled. When the police found the error, they then charged him for being outside his permit restrictions. I don't remember how the charges were finally dropped, but it was a compelling testimony.

    I sometimes wonder if this is a reaction to our overly litigious society. The police arrest him and discover they made a mistake. Police are human, mistakes do happen. The right thing to do would be to fix the mistake and apologize, but in our society, that apology gets taken and used as the grounds for a lawsuit, so instead, find another charge to charge him with.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,063
    Anne Arundel County
    I sometimes wonder if this is a reaction to our overly litigious society. The police arrest him and discover they made a mistake. Police are human, mistakes do happen. The right thing to do would be to fix the mistake and apologize, but in our society, that apology gets taken and used as the grounds for a lawsuit, so instead, find another charge to charge him with.

    Are the police rally to blame in that one? IIRC, police investigate, but the State's Attorney actually charges. SAs are elected officials, which demonstrates just how important downticket election races can be.

    In AACO, there couldn't be a clearer choice where someone who has demonstrated contempt for self defense (Leitess) is running to kick Wes Adams out of the AACO SA job.
     

    Stoveman

    TV Personality
    Patriot Picket
    Sep 2, 2013
    27,985
    Cuba on the Chesapeake
    Have you been paying attention? I saw a gun owner at the HPRB give a dissertation on how he was arrested and his gun was confiscated due to his permit being incorrectly listed as invalid or canceled. When the police found the error, they then charged him for being outside his permit restrictions. I don't remember how the charges were finally dropped, but it was a compelling testimony.

    I used to live in Saint Mary's County and the State's Attorney was charged with violating the first amendment because he had the sheriff's deputies buy up all the local newspapers because it was going to discuss his conviction of raping a girl in his younger years. I'm not sure many of these State's Attorneys are honorable people. I've had my own run in with several from the St. Mary's office and I've had issues with several.



    I was there, he actually brought in the evidence box that his firearm was eventually returned in. He is also a member here on MDS.
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,147
    I’ll bet you’re right

    I'm wondering if the after market adjustment AR screw (replaces grip mount screw) that's advertised here would fit the definition. It shortens trigger pull, therefore .... a ten dollar perm ban on firearm ownership.

    If it pleases the crown, may I buy and install a hollow hex head bolt on my rifle?
     

    cantstop

    Pentultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 10, 2012
    8,158
    MD
    The problem with SB 707 is just about any gun modification can be construed as a method to increase the trigger rate of fire. It is purposely vague and invites abuse by prosecutors that will ask if you have made any modification at all to your gun.

    Do not think this law won't affect every case that a gun is found during an investigation. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Hogue grips on my S&W Model 64 revolver qualify for inclusion under this poorly written law.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Since this law is arbitrary at best, would a trigger pull gauge be used to determine some "factory" setting and anything less than that would constitute a violation of the law? What mechanism could they use to determine if I am compliant? What happens to the firearms who were built as a target grade firearm and not to some standard the government would decide? If you are 1302'd, I would bet that ALL of your firearms will be tested to be in compliance of this law too. That would open up a completely different can of worms. What will "trigger" (sorry) a test of your firearm? Will the DNR be checking your firearms when in the field? How far can this law infringe on your personal rights?

    I know I'm preaching to the choir but this is the state of Maryland, how far do you think they can and will take this?
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    This is Maryland, not the United States.

    In Maryland, we have a Democrat supermajority in the legislature, and a population that overwhelmingly supports this. By the same margin, the voters have been trained to fear firearms, and to support absurd laws restricting their possession and use.

    State's Attorneys are politicians. They are able to understand voter demographics, and certainly play to their base.

    Anyone who trusts a prosecutor to make a decision on a 2A case of any stripe, where the choice to prosecute could be spun to make said prosecutor appear "soft on guns", to opt against prosecution, is dreaming of dancing with unicorns, especially in the ultra-leftist central core of the state.

    If you can be made to look bad, while the SA's office carves another notch into his "vote for me because I stomped a gun nut" resume, count on your being thrown under the campaign bus.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    This is Maryland, not the United States.

    In Maryland, we have a Democrat supermajority in the legislature, and a population that overwhelmingly supports this. By the same margin, the voters have been trained to fear firearms, and to support absurd laws restricting their possession and use.

    State's Attorneys are politicians. They are able to understand voter demographics, and certainly play to their base.

    Anyone who trusts a prosecutor to make a decision on a 2A case of any stripe, where the choice to prosecute could be spun to make said prosecutor appear "soft on guns", to opt against prosecution, is dreaming of dancing with unicorns, especially in the ultra-leftist central core of the state.

    If you can be made to look bad, while the SA's office carves another notch into his "vote for me because I stomped a gun nut" resume, count on your being thrown under the campaign bus.

    You forgot to include the fact that our current AG is rogue, anti-gun and completely unaccountable outside election years.
     

    Rab1515

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 29, 2014
    2,081
    Calvert
    I told ya, those things were only bought by the fringe. There's probably only about 50-75 of them in the entire United States.

    I cannot wait for the inevitable FOIA for the number of signed permissions slips requested of the ATF.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I cannot wait for the inevitable FOIA for the number of signed permissions slips requested of the ATF.

    I don't own a bump stock, but I do own gun oil and shoe strings. That's why I sent my letter. I was fortunate, I sold mine after the wave calling for their immediate banning. I forgot what I got for it, but I believe it was something like $450.

    I also mentioned gun oil and shoe strings in my cover letter and email.

    I would also caution those who have paracord. This could also be construed as a device if attached to a firearm in a certain manner.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Serious question.

    Since the law went into place on October 1st, the ATF application is to cover certain items, but are other "devices" considered illegal NOW? Since most consider a bump stock and some types of trigger assembles to be the driving force for the ATF letter, what about other devices? Are we in violation of this law, if we have a certain spring(s) installed into our firearms? I mean right now, not after Oct 1, 2019?

    Do we actually have a 1 year grace period on these "devices"?
     

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