AR lower "pistol"

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

I know this has been covered somewhere. Sorry for the duplicate information but I couldn't find what I was looking for.

Questions and scenarios:

1. I buy a AR-15 lower and put a SBR brace on it. Then put a 10.5" inch upper on it. It is now a legal or illegal pistol? If legal do I have to register it with MSP?

2. If the lower is fully assembled like this (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...eceiver-complete-ambidextrous-prod108056.aspx) then is it considered a "rifle" so any upper that isn't a 16" HBAR would be illegal? Putting a 10.5" inch upper on it would make it an illegal SBR even if I put the pistol brace on it?

According to "Twang and Bang" YouTube channel, once the lower starts out as a rifle it cannot become a pistol. However, once the lower starts out as a pistol it can become a rifle or pistol. Question is what makes the determination that it is a rifle? The stock or the upper? If I buy this from Brownells will I go through the pistol waiting period with Maryland or the usual long gun 4473 check? I imagine this will make the determination for me and since it has a rifle stock on it it isn't going to be a pistol.

3. If I can find a complete lower with a pistol brace like this (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...-sbpdw-brace-no-magazine-black-516446451.html) will that trigger the MD handgun waiting period?

Freaking maddening....

RuralRifleGuy · Oct 11, 2018

From everything I've read pistol -> rifle ok, rifle -> pistol not ok. So if this is marketed as a rifle and has a stock it cannot go to a pistol. As for how lowers are treated by MD, 7 day waiting period just like handguns regardless of setup. The 77r has a checkbox just for lower receivers; I have two lowers that should come off the 77r wait tomorrow.

Edit: You can go pistol -> rifle and then back from what I have read. If you build it as a pistol with a brace and a 10.5" upper it's legally a pistol and MD, you do not need to register it with MDSP as the lower will already in their system from the 77r since it's the firearm. You could then put a 16" upper on it and a stock to make it a rifle and it doesn't effect anything or require any notification.

smokey · Oct 11, 2018

Buy a stripped lower and transfer it as "other". This exempts you from needing a HQL because it's a receiver. you do the 77r, and pick it up in a week. You can then build it into a pistol.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...m-lok-moe-ept-sba3-pistol-kit-5165448818.html

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

smokey0118 said:
Buy a stripped lower and transfer it as "other". This exempts you from needing a HQL because it's a receiver. You can then build it into a pistol.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...m-lok-moe-ept-sba3-pistol-kit-5165448818.html

I thought about that, but to do it right I would need to take a class like Clandestine offers and that is out of my price range.

So any lower triggers 77r no matter the configuration?

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

RuralRifleGuy said:
I have two lowers that should come off the 77r wait tomorrow.

Complete lowers or stripped?

smokey · Oct 11, 2018

pilot25 said:
I thought about that, but to do it right I would need to take a class like Clandestine offers and that is out of my price range.

So any lower triggers 77r no matter the configuration?

If you want an AR pistol

buy it as a pistol- There are plenty of choices now of manufacturers that make factory AR pistols. The springfield saint comes to mind. You buy them the same way you buy any other pistol.

Build it from a stripped lower- Do the 77r, but you don't need a hql. Build it as a pistol first, and then you can forever switch back and forth between pistol and rifle.

Make one yourself from an 80% lower- no 77r, and really not even that technically difficult anymore.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

smokey0118 said:
If you want an AR pistol

buy it as a pistol- There are plenty of choices now of manufacturers that make factory AR pistols. The springfield saint comes to mind. You buy them the same way you buy any other pistol.

Build it from a stripped lower- Do the 77r, but you don't need a hql. Build it as a pistol first, and then you can forever switch back and forth between pistol and rifle.

Make one yourself from an 80% lower- no 77r, and really not even that technically difficult anymore.

Right but a "complete lower" would not trigger a 77r because of the stock? I would have to get a "complete pistol lower?"

I think I'm making this more complicated than it is.

dontpanic · Oct 11, 2018

That is a complete AR-15 lower with a stock. It is not a rifle. You can pull the stock off and put a pistol upper on it, as long as you do not put a rifle upper on it first.

It does not matter what the 77R says. Rifle, pistol or other. It is what it is and that is "other".

If it was a rifle, it would have to have an heavy barrel or you could not purchase it in MD. Also, a MD legal rifle requires no 77R, or is cash and carry.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

dontpanic said:
That is a complete AR-15 lower with a stock. It is not a rifle. You can pull the stock off and put a pistol upper on it, as long as you do not put a rifle upper on it first.

It does not matter what the 77R says. Rifle, pistol or other. It is what it is and that is "other".

Ok, thanks.

To clarify, if I'm going to get (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...eceiver-complete-ambidextrous-prod108056.aspx) I have to go through the waiting period and have an HQL?

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=209213

I think that is correct based on this thread but still seems muddled. I just want to make sure the FFL makes me wait and I have to produce my HQL. Then my bases are covered.

alucard0822 · Oct 11, 2018

Federally, a lower can be built into a pistol, then converted back and forth provided the < 16" barrels are not on it with a stock, has to be with a brace or tube only. If it is "originally assembled or produced as a rifle", then it is a rifle, and can not be a pistol. Also not a good idea to get a pistol upper with a lower that is configured with a stock, if it's transferred as a "firearm" or "other", put a brace on it before purchasing the pistol barrel/upper. Good idea to slap a brace on ANY lower you buy, just in case you want to "unassemble" the rifle "conversion" down the road to "return" it to a pistol.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is
made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a)
serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than
16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A
firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit
that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or
re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle
with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26
U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts
designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in
length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the
NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a
handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon
originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

RuralRifleGuy · Oct 11, 2018

pilot25 said:
Complete lowers or stripped?

Stripped. Both are standard AR-15 lowers, pistol caliber lowers would also be 77r'd, lowers designed for 7.62/.308 are cash and carry from what I've been told.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

RuralRifleGuy said:
Stripped.

Right. I think this is where there will be the difference. I want to get a complete lower but put a brace on it.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

I think I'm confusing everyone. I'll post this again.

If I buy this (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...eceiver-complete-ambidextrous-prod108056.aspx) will I have to go through the waiting period and have an HQL to get it?

If no, then if I put a pistol brace on it does it become an illegal pistol?

RuralRifleGuy · Oct 11, 2018

pilot25 said:
Right. I think this is where there will be the difference. I want to get a complete lower but put a brace on it. If it is considered a pistol then I should have to go through the whole HQL check and waiting period. But a pistol doesn't have a rifle stock on it. Hence, is it a rifle or a pistol in the eyes of Maryland. I guess I can just ask the local FFL.

The 77R has a spot for lower receivers but does not qualify it with either the word "stripped" or "complete" which reads as all lower receivers (excluding .308 models strictly based on the information my FFL gave me) require one. Tell your FFL what you want to buy, show them a photo and a model number and they'll get you taken care of.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

RuralRifleGuy said:
The 77R has a spot for lower receivers but does not qualify it with either the word "stripped" or "complete" which reads as all lower receivers (excluding .308 models strictly based on the information my FFL gave me) require one. Tell your FFL what you want to buy, show them a photo and a model number and they'll get you taken care of.

Awesome. Thanks.

dontpanic · Oct 11, 2018

pilot25 said:
Right. I think this is where there will be the difference. I want to get a complete lower but put a brace on it. If it is considered a pistol then I should have to go through the whole HQL check and waiting period. But a pistol doesn't have a rifle stock on it. Hence, is it a rifle or a pistol in the eyes of Maryland. I guess I can just ask the local FFL.

You do not need a HQL if it does not have a pistol upper on it. If it has never been built into a rifle(stock and =>16" upper), then you can build it into a pistol. Just take off the stock before putting a pistol upper on. (Yes you can use a regular buffer tube, it does not need to be a pistol buffer tube)

It does not matter if there is a stock on it. It is not a rifle without the upper.

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

dontpanic said:
You do not need a HQL if it does not have a pistol upper on it. If it has never been built into a rifle(stock and =>16" upper), then you can build it into a pistol. Just take off the stock before putting a pistol upper on. (Yes you can use a regular buffer tube, it does not need to be a pistol buffer tube)

It does not matter if there is a stock on it. It is not a rifle without the upper.

Thanks. Sorry I made it so complicated.

That leads to the next question:

So I take off the stock and put on the pistol brace. Good to go... Then I use it in a home defense situation or a cop questions me at a range or some other slim possibility that I have to prove it is legal.

How do you prove it was never a rifle first so it's legal?

dontpanic · Oct 11, 2018

They have to prove it was.

Really, this is why there are pistol buffer tubes and people worried about if it was transferred as an "other or not. Nether are required but they make people feel more confident

pilot25 · Oct 11, 2018

dontpanic said:
...but they make people feel more confident

Right....Sad we are at that point. I'm overly paranoid compared to most people. My friends in Texas and Arizona laugh at me when I ask them these questions.

AR lower "pistol"

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