JDC Speed Shooting & Shot Calling Class AAR

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    As always, on my blog:
    https://hebrewhammerblog.com/2019/07/15/jdc-speed-shooting-shot-calling-aar/

    The JDC guys are a break-away from Green Ops. They are really good instructors, and I like the direction they're taking things. Ken Bloxton is also a pretty talented instructor and shooter, and the stuff we did really put me on the path (I hope) to improve some of my technique, especially vis a vis splits and transitions.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Interesting AAR. I don't get too hung up on split times, but I can see the overall utility. Seems like they packed a lot into those 4 or so hours, as usual.

    Side note: I beat Allen Sams on a plate rack head to head last year in one of Givens' classes. ;). He's a nice guy.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Interesting AAR. I don't get too hung up on split times, but I can see the overall utility. Seems like they packed a lot into those 4 or so hours, as usual.
    It was definitely more of a competition class. As you know, fast split times are an indicator of competency more than a necessity for winning real-world encounters here in CONUS. You can't really do a 2-3s bill drill into a dude (as a civilian or a LEO, for that matter) and come out looking great on the other side, even in a legitimate defensive shooting.

    The shot calling, on the other hand, I think does have some legitimate application. And fast transitions are definitely important.

    Side note: I beat Allen Sams on a plate rack head to head last year in one of Givens' classes. ;). He's a nice guy.
    Not a bad shooter, either. You can tell he's put in the hours.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    It was definitely more of a competition class. As you know, fast split times are an indicator of competency more than a necessity for winning real-world encounters here in CONUS. You can't really do a 2-3s bill drill into a dude (as a civilian or a LEO, for that matter) and come out looking great on the other side, even in a legitimate defensive shooting.

    The shot calling, on the other hand, I think does have some legitimate application. And fast transitions are definitely important.


    Not a bad shooter, either. You can tell he's put in the hours.


    I use competition as a means to an end, not an end in itself. Doesn't mean a class like this wouldn't still be useful to someone like me, as you said.

    I think the RMR was still pretty new to Allen at that point.

    And yet again we're two of the few discussing training....
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    And yet again we're two of the few discussing training....
    Someone in the industry on P&S once guesstimated the number of people in the US who took firearms training on their own dime, and it was pretty damn low... like maybe 5k-10k? And you can imagine the number of guys who do it more than once a year is some fraction of that. That's why people who do this for a few years usually wind up knowing like 25%-50% of the class and all the instructors in their area - it's a small world. Six degrees of Matt Landfair and all that.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,231
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    Erwos, what would you recommend as a good beginner AR training course (no formal previous training, have shot at a static range, can get good groupings, but no sling/position/dynamic experience)? Same question for pistol?
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    Finally clicked thru to read the blog post , and did a double take . One of the participants in the photo was a carbon copy of Biggfoot Jr .

    Added - And of course the class seemed potentially interesting , and good write up as usual .
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Erwos, what would you recommend as a good beginner AR training course (no formal previous training, have shot at a static range, can get good groupings, but no sling/position/dynamic experience)? Same question for pistol?
    I can only speak from my experiences in the NoVA / NW of DC area, but Green Ops, Justified Defensive Concepts, and FPF Training all have classes for that experience level that I would consider to be pretty good. You will get more out of the full 1-2 day courses than the shorter clinic-style classes, so would urge you to look into those. I have no idea what's in northern MD or PA that's good; sometimes seems like you gotta be up near Ohio to get anything decent in that area.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    I can only speak from my experiences in the NoVA / NW of DC area, but Green Ops, Justified Defensive Concepts, and FPF Training all have classes for that experience level that I would consider to be pretty good. You will get more out of the full 1-2 day courses than the shorter clinic-style classes, so would urge you to look into those. I have no idea what's in northern MD or PA that's good; sometimes seems like you gotta be up near Ohio to get anything decent in that area.

    I'd echo what Erwos recommends.

    For AR, I'd start with the FPF Training (John Murphy) "Minuteman Rifle Course". This provides some classroom stuff on the AR platform itself, then time zeroing, and then some simple drills/marksmanship exercises. With that under your belt (and practice what you learned on your own), I'd move on to Green Ops Carbine I and II courses. I haven't trained with JDC since they formed, but as some of them came over from Green Ops, you'd probably be fine with their equivalents as well.

    For handgun, I'd again start with Murphy, as you can go through his more basic, 101 courses first. Then I'd probably work some marksmanship Pistol classes with Green Ops and/or JDC, but I'd work my way back to Murphy for his ASAT class, which will give you true street survival skills, where marksmanship is only one part of the equation.

    I'd also tell you to keep an eye on the FPF site for courses Murphy hosts. Each year he brings in a veritable who's who of nationwide instructors to teach at his range in VA (Wayne Dobbs/Darryl Bolke, Tom Givens, Karl Rehn, Greg Ellifritz, Paul Sharp, William Aprill, Mas Ayoob, John Johnston/Melody Lauer, Annette Evans, etc., etc., etc.).

    All of the above are in VA.

    I can also recommend Center Mass Combat Tactics for carbine, but their classes are so infrequent as to be unicorns. If you see one offered here, I'd jump on it. They are in MD.

    For courses in PA, Erwos is again right. While some of the traveling instructors will do classes at the New Holland club, the main way to find out about those is if you follow a particular instructor online and see he/she is doing a course there. Lots of instructors do classes outside Pittsburgh, and I can recommend Jeff Bloovman of Armed Dynamics if you're more interested in doing stuff in the Philly area. Race Street Range outside Philly (run by Annette Evans) is not yet up and running as a live shooting range, but she hosts others who do non-shooting courses at her venue (I did a low light tactics and pepper spray class there).
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I really wanted to do FPF's Minuteman, but it kept clashing against more advanced classes that were better for my long-term development as a shooter. Hoping to maybe hit it next year.

    Now, one thing I'm trying that is gonna be interesting is TOC's Tac Pistol I course in August; they're totally unknown to me except a few positive reviews of classes on FB. Then I just gotta sort out September (99% chance it's GO Defensive Carbine) and December, and I'm good for the rest of the year - 13 classes in 12 months. :)
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    I really wanted to do FPF's Minuteman, but it kept clashing against more advanced classes that were better for my long-term development as a shooter. Hoping to maybe hit it next year.

    Now, one thing I'm trying that is gonna be interesting is TOC's Tac Pistol I course in August; they're totally unknown to me except a few positive reviews of classes on FB. Then I just gotta sort out September (99% chance it's GO Defensive Carbine) and December, and I'm good for the rest of the year - 13 classes in 12 months. :)

    You're probably beyond "Minuteman" at this point. Most of it is zeroing and positional shooting. I love Murphy but your $ and time are probably best utilized elsewhere.

    TOC??
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    http://www.toc-llc.com/

    I don't know jack anything about them, honestly. The class videos they put up seemed sane, the instructor has a decent resume, and the syllabus checked the boxes, so I guess we'll see. Not out a lot of money if it turns out to suck, and if they're good, I'll now have that information and another option. I feel like this is the kind of thing someone's got to attend and write up so people know one way or the other.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    http://www.toc-llc.com/

    I don't know jack anything about them, honestly. The class videos they put up seemed sane, the instructor has a decent resume, and the syllabus checked the boxes, so I guess we'll see. Not out a lot of money if it turns out to suck, and if they're good, I'll now have that information and another option. I feel like this is the kind of thing someone's got to attend and write up so people know one way or the other.

    Yeah, wow, not that I know of EVERYONE in the training industry, but definitely many/most. Never heard of these dudes but I'll look forward to your AAR when you get around to training with them. More options is good.

    It'll be interesting to see what Greg Ellifritz does once he retires next year and moves. VA will then have even more training options, an embarrassment of riches.
     

    CrabcakesAndFootball

    Active Member
    Jun 14, 2017
    697
    JDC is running a Defensive Shotgun I course on 9/28 that I think I’m going to sign up for. Figured I’d post it since a lot of training places seem to post shotgun courses on their site but they never actually schedule them.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    It'll be interesting to see what Greg Ellifritz does once he retires next year and moves. VA will then have even more training options, an embarrassment of riches.
    Greg is moving to VA? That would be phenomenal. Really enjoyed his knife course, and I'd love to see his take on shooting.

    JDC is running a Defensive Shotgun I course on 9/28 that I think I’m going to sign up for. Figured I’d post it since a lot of training places seem to post shotgun courses on their site but they never actually schedule them.
    Tim Chandler is going to be running it, and he runs an amazing shotgun course. I'd be there if it were possible.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Greg is moving to VA? That would be phenomenal. Really enjoyed his knife course, and I'd love to see his take on shooting.


    Tim Chandler is going to be running it, and he runs an amazing shotgun course. I'd be there if it were possible.

    Yeah, at least last I heard he was looking to move to the Richmond area.

    I willprobably do the FPF Shotgun class on 9/21 (also taught by Tim).
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    Someone in the industry on P&S once guesstimated the number of people in the US who took firearms training on their own dime, and it was pretty damn low... like maybe 5k-10k? And you can imagine the number of guys who do it more than once a year is some fraction of that. That's why people who do this for a few years usually wind up knowing like 25%-50% of the class and all the instructors in their area - it's a small world. Six degrees of Matt Landfair and all that.

    I took my first class this year after asking the instructor on FB if he was going to be in the area. I'd like to attend more classes, but they're usually at times that conflict with work or my sleep schedule. Holding a class from 1800-2200 on weekdays doesn't help me.
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    As someone that would like to get some training, likely AR carbine stuff. Recommend a course? Rough estimate on training? Gear needed?

    For the record, I'm not a gun newb, decent shooter in mid/long range Fclass, but shot a DMR match and found positional shooting needs work. Not looking for a "this is a charging handle" type class but something I can learn from.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I took my first class this year after asking the instructor on FB if he was going to be in the area. I'd like to attend more classes, but they're usually at times that conflict with work or my sleep schedule. Holding a class from 1800-2200 on weekdays doesn't help me.
    This surprises me, because anything beyond basic b*tch CCW courses tend to be weekend affairs. Look at those outfits I recommended earlier, they have training schedules up.

    As someone that would like to get some training, likely AR carbine stuff. Recommend a course? Rough estimate on training? Gear needed?
    Green Ops has one coming up on September 15 at the NRA HQ range, and I will most likely be there. Besides a working and zeroed gun, you don't need more than a sling and a way to hold a couple mags on you. JDC also has a couple good carbine classes in October on Saturdays.
     

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