Any service rifle loaders here?

Shamr0ck · Jun 8, 2019

Looking to get set up to reload for my white oak A2 upper 20”, 1-8 and would appreciate some guidance on what’s worked ...

I have:
- reloader 15 (recommended by long time shooter)
- 77/80gr SMKs (recommended by a long time shooter)
- 500 pc Lapua 223 new match brass (birthday gift)

?s
- stick with lapua brass or change to lake city, why?
- whose SR primers to use?
- whose dies?

I load on a Dillon 550 and while their carbide dies aren’t that expensive, before I purchase their set, I’d like to confirm that I need all three rather than swap out another die for one of the stations (use a small base sizing die, use someone else’s seating die, etc)

RCBS chargemaster is on the wish list for Father’s Day/birthday and I need a case gauge (leaning toward Sheridan)

Anything else I should get/need?

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dist1646 · Jun 8, 2019

24 gr of RE15with either bullet. Save the Lapua for 600yds and use cheaper brass for 200-300yds. LC, Winchester have produced excellent results for me. Primers, I used CCI BR4's until they lost their mind on pricing. Remington 7 1/2 small rifle benchrest primers are good. The Russian small rifle magnum primers are my go to now ( Wolf or Tula). Never used a Dillon press though, I really like their calendar girls. :innocent0

Since your upper is a White Oak, the Wylde chamber they use should be good to go with Dillon's dies. Worst case, you may need to switch out the sizing die with a small base though, I doubt it. I mention it because my rifles have smaller dimension chambers.

As for what else you may need, I suggest a case trimmer (powered) and a primer pocket depth uniforming tool (only need to do it once). A decent tumbler to clean your brass. A caliber to measure with.

There is information on loads posted on White Oak's site, I think it is under FAQ.

atblis · Jun 8, 2019

Look around for Army Marksmanship postings about reloading. They bothered to scientifically bench test what matters and what doesn't. Lots of people put lots and lots of effort into things that don't matter one freaking bit.

I wouldn't bother with a case gauge. Get a hornady comparator set for your calipers and measure shoulder bump. Case gauges are handy if you're loading the same ammo for multiple guns and want to stay inside SAAMI specs.

You may find that a Rifle length gas AR15 will not grow the brass. It's possible that you'll never need to trim. I did a study with several ARs, and found that often my brass length stopped growing at a certain point, and never exceeded the SAAMI max even after many many firings. Only the carbine length and shorter guns stretched the brass out past SAAMI specs.

Select a powder that meters well in a Dillon measure. I use XBR8208 for that reason. I don't know about RL15.

I wouldn't bother with the Dillon dies. You'll have to use lube anyways. Get something that lets you use a neck bushing. I would suggest the Redding full length S die. A 0.245" bushing should be about right. Bump the shoulder a couple thousandths.

Get a micrometer Forester benchrest/ultra seating die. The Redding competition seaters are nice, but the Forester are just good and cheaper.

I have yet to encounter a gun that needs a small base die. IMO, if your gun needs one, the chamber is out of spec.

dist1646 · Jun 8, 2019

atblis said:
Look around for Army Marksmanship postings about reloading. They bothered to scientifically bench test what matters and what doesn't. Lots of people put lots and lots of effort into things that don't matter one freaking bit.

I wouldn't bother with a case gauge. Get a hornady comparator set for your calipers and measure shoulder bump. Case gauges are handy if you're loading the same ammo for multiple guns and want to stay inside SAAMI specs.

You may find that a Rifle length gas AR15 will not grow the brass. It's possible that you'll never need to trim. I did a study with several ARs, and found that often my brass length stopped growing at a certain point, and never exceeded the SAAMI max even after many many firings. Only the carbine length and shorter guns stretched the brass out past SAAMI specs.

Select a powder that meters well in a Dillon measure. I use XBR8208 for that reason. I don't know about RL15.

I wouldn't bother with the Dillon dies. You'll have to use lube anyways. Get something that lets you use a neck bushing. I would suggest the Redding full length S die. A 0.245" bushing should be about right. Bump the shoulder a couple thousandths.

Get a micrometer Forester benchrest/ultra seating die. The Redding competition seaters are nice, but the Forester are just good and cheaper.

I have yet to encounter a gun that needs a small base die. IMO, if your gun needs one, the chamber is out of spec.

Brass will need to be trimmed, even in a rifle length gas system. Trimming not only insures function but also improves consistent accuracy.
Never used a bushing die for service rifle, not that it could not be used, it simply is not necessary. For consistency, a bushing die requires that the case necks be of uniform dimension, IE, the necks need to be turned. Service Rifle is not bench rest so there is no need for unnecessary additional work. Redding and Forster competition dies are both excellent quality. Personally, I use a Redding competition seating die for my 600yd ammo. Either will be fine for all ammo, I simply use a standard seating die for the short lines. No need to constantly be readjusting my dies. All of my ammo is capable of shooting well inside the X ring as long as I do my part.

A small base die does not indicate that the chamber is out of spec. What the small base die does is return the base of the case to factory dimension. Since I prefer to use the tighter chamber like Compass Lake or Krieger's 5.56 match, the use of a small base die is a step to insure my ammo is reliable.

In addition to the USAMU's Facebook page, the best source of information is on the www.USRifleTeams.com National Match Forum.

atblis · Jun 8, 2019

Mentioning small base dies out of the gate is doing new reloaders a disservice. Most likely they won't need them.

There are reasons to use bushing dies even without neck turning. Foremost is that you can tailor how much you want your necks sized. Most conventional sizing dies way under-size the neck. A 0.245" bushing works nicely for Lake City. Don't recall what the neck thickness is like on Lapua brass.

Pinecone · Jun 8, 2019

There is no reason for the Dillon Carbide dies. Even Dillon tells you they are only really offered for very high production. You still need to lube.

I agree about small base dies. I have loaded a lot of 5.56 and 7.62 for multiple rifles (including starting with machine gun fired 7.62) and never used a small base die.

Realize that MSK 80 gr need to be single loaded, they will not fit in a mag. And a number of people shoot 62 - 68 grains at the shorter ranges.

CMP Forums has a lot of info from service rifle shooters and loads.

Oh, Lapua brass does not seem to be that much of an advantage in 5.56.

Shamr0ck · Jun 8, 2019

Thank you all - stealing a few minutes during a graduation party for my second eldest - will review in depth later

I do so appreciate the willingness to share - hope to be able to return the favor at some point myself

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steves1911 · Jun 8, 2019

Like several others have mentioned the small base dies probably are not needed and in my opinion work the brass more than needed. If the sierra bullets dont provide what you are looking for the 75gr hornady work great and cost less.

Blacksmith101 · Jun 8, 2019

No load data but you may find some other Service Rifle tips that are helpful:

Shooting Tips from the USAMU Service Rifle Team
http://thecmp.org/training-tech/shooting-tips-from-the-usamu-service-rifle-team/

Being of Service Rifle - Archive (2014-2017)
http://www.standardsandgoals.com/_BOSR/index.html

Park ranger · Jun 8, 2019

All very good advice about. I used to prep primer pockets, but not anymore. Less time on the loading bench and more time in the sling has helped more than anything. Highest EIC match score for me to date us a 488-15x, with a handful of 485+, and too many to count 480+.

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KRC · Jun 9, 2019

As suggested, you may want to consider a die with adjustable neck sizing capability, as different case brands have varying neck thicknesses. Lapua .223 cases have significantly thicker material than most (all?) other cases. I have not had to retire any Lapua cases due to splits after many, many reloadings. LC cases are thinner (but harder) and will permit higher loads without powder compression. (I use a .250" or .249" neck bushing for Lapua depending on bullet, and a .246" bushing for LC cases.) With regards to small base dies, If your chamber is tight, you WILL require this. Otherwise your resized rounds will not only not chamber, but will get stuck, possibly VERY stuck. (Been there, done that - don't want to go there again.)

dist1646 · Jun 9, 2019

For those who support bushing dies, what do you do about varying neck thickness? You do realize that varying neck thickness is one cause of run out and resulting loss of accuracy don't you? Unless you are neck turning, the bushing will not give consistent neck tension due to varying thickness of the brass. The use of an expander ball included in just about every die made with the exception of those specifically designed for BR is what brings the inside of the neck tension back to what is needed with a reasonable level of consistency. Note also that bushing dies do not fully size the neck completely back to the neck/shoulder junction, another potential reliability issue in a semi auto. The comment about small base dies is spot on in my expert opinion. Larger chambers such as the Wylde allow people to get away with not needing a small base die but, brass expands to fit the chamber when fired. Take a look at your fired brass and you will find it very obvious that it has expanded more on one side than the other. This is more pronounced in larger chambers. You can obviously size your fired brass to fit the chamber of the specific gun it was originally fired from. The question is, are you certain it rests in the chamber in the same orientation as when it was originally fired? Unless you are marking your brass and carefully single loading, the answer is no. As I stated, I use smaller chambers in my rifles and size my brass with a small base die. The die is designed to size brass back to factory dimensions. Further, past experience has proven that a full length die does not reliably size my brass back to what is needed for 100% reliable function, the small base die does. I normally get around 13 loads from my brass without annealing and without any failures. I am pretty certain my brass is not being overworked. I firmly believe it is best to keep it simple, especially for newer shooters. They have a lot to keep in mind as it is.

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NRA High master

byf43 · Jun 9, 2019

When I was loading a lot of .223/5.56 for High Power Rifle (and other stuff), I used to size/deprime each case on the RCBS RockChucker with RCBS "Competition Dies".

I don't know if they were absolutely necessary, but, I got a great deal on them and have just always used them.

After sizing, I tumble them again to remove the lube, then clean out the primer pocket, and trim to size.

From there, over to the Dillon RL-550B and complete the loading process.

Winchester cases
Winchester SR primer
H-335 powder. 23.0 gr.
NOTE: This load is safe and accurate in MY rifle. Use due diligence in working up this load.
Sierra 69 gr MatchKing

I don't use the RCBS competition bullet seating die. I've never gotten it to work with the Dillon.
Dillon's seater die, then Dillon taper crimp die.

Off sandbags my Colt R6601 will put 3 shots that can be covered by a dime at 100 yards.

Park ranger · Jun 9, 2019

Using the M die after sizing will keep the I'D of necks consistent. It expands on the upstroke, rather the downstroke. But I make my life even more simple now a days. I buy primed wolf brass and just fill and seat.

Shot a 3x600 today. 594-23x. My first clean at 600.

Speed3 · Jun 9, 2019

Park ranger said:
Using the M die after sizing will keep the I'D of necks consistent. It expands on the upstroke, rather the downstroke. But I make my life even more simple now a days. I buy primed wolf brass and just fill and seat.

Shot a 3x600 today. 594-23x. My first clean at 600.

You guys didnt get rained out? Was contemplating going

Park ranger · Jun 10, 2019

We was able to shoot it, rain didn't start until about 4 pm. Only 12 or so showed up.

dist1646 · Jun 10, 2019

Park ranger said:
Using the M die after sizing will keep the I'D of necks consistent. It expands on the upstroke, rather the downstroke. But I make my life even more simple now a days. I buy primed wolf brass and just fill and seat.

Shot a 3x600 today. 594-23x. My first clean at 600.

Congratulations on your first 600yd clean! :thumbsup:

Hope you have many more!

Shamr0ck · Jun 10, 2019

Park ranger said:
We was able to shoot it, rain didn't start until about 4 pm. Only 12 or so showed up.

Where do I find service rifle match schedules? Nothing will beat sling and trigger time...

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Park ranger · Jun 10, 2019

Pm sent

Shamr0ck · Jun 11, 2019

Park ranger said:
Pm sent

Many thanks! With all the driving we do to WVU for our youngest to train, driving westward for matches will feel like a walk in the park.

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Any service rifle loaders here?

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