"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

LONGSHOT · Jan 6, 2012

please don't tell me i have it wrong. the SOUTHwestern pistol leauge in az and nm where i lived ,cooper and chapman shot and had this drill at .their schools ,that was the game !and that is how it was practiced,not at anon-moving targets.

3rdRcn · Jan 6, 2012

LONGSHOT said:
IN THE 70" that was the game !and that is how it was practiced,not at anon-moving target.

Youtube the "El Presidente" drill man and you'll see what that drill is, the mozambique drill is not the same drill. No matter what they called what you did in the 70's.

Norton · Jan 6, 2012

Huckleberry said:
Ever do the Tueller Drill?

A knife wielding attacker stands 21 FEET from you. On your signal the attacker will charge you while you attempt to draw and fire your pistol(Red Gun or Airsoft, of course) at the attacker.

How long do you think it takes the average person to cover the 7 yards to you?

About 1.5 Seconds on Average depending on the physical condition of the attacker. Some drill times I have seen have been as fast as 1.2 seconds.

Now, how long does a knife have to be to produce a fatal stab wound? Puncture wound to the heart being the obvious

Go ahead and look that one up so you can see why your statement about a sword wielding attacker is ridiculous and could cost you your life if you continue to operate with such a mindset.

We used to do this drill with magic markers acting as the knives. The goal of the attacker was to get as much magic marker on the defender as he could before the defender could get his weapon out of his holster and on target.

Very instructive.

3rdRcn · Jan 6, 2012

Norton said:
We used to do this drill with magic markers acting as the knives. The goal of the attacker was to get as much magic marker on the defender as he could before the defender could get his weapon out of his holster and on target.

Very instructive.

Try playing it with a stun gun some time.

Norton · Jan 6, 2012

3rdRcn said:
Try playing it with a stun gun some time.

Ouch.

We did do it with Sharpees one day. I gave you something to think about all weekend when you looked at all of those red marks all over your body.

Huckleberry · Jan 6, 2012

LONGSHOT said:
IN THE 70" that was the game !and that is how it was practiced,not at anon-moving target.

What Game? IPSC

What you described is not the El Presidente drill designed by Jeff Cooper.

Google is your friend when you're suffering from C.R.S.

3rdRcn · Jan 6, 2012

Yeah, it definitely adds a bit of ouch to the equation just like if the attacker had a real knife. Mercop likes to use stun guns in his training.

LONGSHOT · Jan 6, 2012

the col. changed his teaching sas his school grew,no crs ,just fact w/ paper to back it up,huck.

Huckleberry · Jan 6, 2012

LONGSHOT said:
the col. changed his teaching sas his school grew,no crs ,just fact w/ paper to back it up,huck.

Then would you mind showing that paper because I can't find any reference written by Cooper himself and I was always such a big fan of the man.

That would be a very interesting insight to Cooper.

LONGSHOT · Jan 6, 2012

MY CERTIFICATE FROM HIS SCHOOL BE ALRIGHT SIGNED BY THE COL. BEFORE HE SOLD SCHOOL.,GUNSITE.BE GOOD ENOUGH.

Huckleberry · Jan 6, 2012

LONGSHOT said:
MY CERTIFICATE FROM HIS SCHOOL BE ALRIGHT SIGNED BY THE COL. BEFORE HE SOLD SCHOOL.,GUNSITE.BE GOOD ENOUGH.

What are you getting upset about? I asked you a simple, polite question.

You got to receive instruction from Cooper himself, you're a lucky guy.

I only got to hear him speak in a lecture about shooting and read his books on the topic.

Just would be interesting to see how the El Presidente evolved into the drill that he later taught and wrote so much about.

So when when did you attend Gunsite? You must have some good stories to tell. Your own version of Gunsite Gossip.

hvymax · Jan 6, 2012

Huckleberry said:
Ever do the Tueller Drill?

A knife wielding attacker stands 21 FEET from you. On your signal the attacker will charge you while you attempt to draw and fire your pistol(Red Gun or Airsoft, of course) at the attacker.

How long do you think it takes the average person to cover the 7 yards to you?

About 1.5 Seconds on Average depending on the physical condition of the attacker. Some drill times I have seen have been as fast as 1.2 seconds.

Now, how long does a knife have to be to produce a fatal stab wound? Puncture wound to the heart being the obvious

Go ahead and look that one up so you can see why your statement about a sword wielding attacker is ridiculous and could cost you your life if you continue to operate with such a mindset.

Norton said:
We used to do this drill with magic markers acting as the knives. The goal of the attacker was to get as much magic marker on the defender as he could before the defender could get his weapon out of his holster and on target.

Very instructive.

The easiest fatal stab wound is to the throat. The jugular or carotid is right there any 1" blade could make short work of them. Just like the inverted technique of targeting the femoral artery gives you a readily available fatal target. I was originally trained to go blade down edge foreward so even a defensive block will cut to the bone and if someone attempts to do a normal karate disarm technique the tendon to their thumb would be readily available to my blade unless they use a reverse grip which would increase their leverage ratio exponentially probably leading to my arm being broken while my blade would only slice the outside of their forearm (I have the forearm scar to show for the technique)also a downward thrust would be effective no matter where it connects and almost instantly fatal to the throat. Close combat fighting like the Tueller and other drills you have to always combine open hand techniques as well as applying whatever weapon you can lay hands on to whatever target from whatever angle to end the fight.

LONGSHOT · Jan 6, 2012

HUCK I'M SORRY FOR THE WAY IT CAME ACROSS.I AM VERY LUCKY TO HAVE MET THE COL. AND HIS BOSS, THE MRS.! have agreat day.

SCARCQB · Jan 6, 2012

In reality.. from a holstered draw... Its going to be two to the legs, one on the nutsack, a couple in the torso and multiple misses as one tries to return fire and seek cover.

From what I have seen.. Most will fire thier weapons as soon as the muzzle comes into close proximity to the target. Two to the chest and one to the head is a goal.. but rarely seen in the aftermath of real gunfights.

booker · Jan 6, 2012

-Mil-Surp-Phreak- said:
All I could think about was the scene from "Collateral"

So bad ass. Especially that he "hits" the 2nd guy in the head as he's falling. haha

Huckleberry · Jan 6, 2012

With the advent of modern JHP rounds, unless the BG is wearing some heavy duty body armor or a homocide bomber's vest then you would be better off to keep pouring on the coals with more hits to his COM.

Let more petals, fingers or talons of death keep eviscerating him and turning his insides to hamburger.

Leave the CNS shots as an available means of last resort though.

Aim small, Miss Small

Huckleberry · Jan 6, 2012

LONGSHOT said:
HUCK I'M SORRY FOR THE WAY IT CAME ACROSS.I AM VERY LUCKY TO HAVE MET THE COL. AND HIS BOSS, THE MRS.! have agreat day.

No Problem. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

FrankOceanXray · Jan 6, 2012

mercop, see anything you can use here?

And stun guns in your training? Id go ape shit. Or worse, use OC. I will fight like no MFer youve ever seen. Good tool, teaching aid use.

august1410 · Jan 6, 2012

I subscribe to the "all six shots in the center and reload as quickly as possible and send six more" method.

BRONZ · Jan 6, 2012

A while back when I was getting all my certs. becoming a firearms instructor I found out we(American Law Enforcement) are like the only ones who do this drill. Most other countries do 2 to the body 1 to the hip or girdle area. Our federal agencies were just getting to that.

"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

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