Need help with a trespassing situation

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  • BugLaden

    Member
    Mar 8, 2016
    27
    Littlestown, PA
    Hello fellow Marylanders,

    I have an issue with trespassing which I hope you can weigh in on. There is a private road that connects Uniontown Rd in Westminster to several houses. The houses are well away from the road. Unfortunately, many local residents also use this as a short-cut between Uniontown Rd and the Safeway in College Square.

    I have No Trepassing signs that are summarily ignored constantly. When confronted I get all manner of hostility, from verbal to physical assault. The Westminster police have been called several times and are aware of the issue.

    I describe the situation in this video (which was made for a specific pipe-smoking audience on Youtube). Within I show the layout of the road and describe the problem:
    https://youtu.be/WLrB1-MJSLU?t=294

    While doing research online I came upon an opinion piece in the Carroll County Times called
    Legal Matters: Signs, verbal warnings sufficient notice to trespassers
    https://www.carrollcountytimes.com/lifestyle/ph-cc-legal-matters-072316-20170717-story.html

    I wrote an email to Ms. Donna Engle, the author and a lawyer, asking what I could do. In it I repeat what I wrote above, and ask:

    The police, city hall, and the Dept of Planning and Taxation all state that this is a private road. How can I stop these people from trespassing? By the time police arrive trespassers are long gone. Can I physically PREVENT people from walking on this road, forcing them to turn around?


    Her response:

    Hi, Mr. Mittelstedt,
    The road is posted as private,so your trespassers could not argue that they had no idea they were trespassing. Trespass is a criminal offense, so calling the police is a logical step. If no other landowner has use of the road under your permission, and you own the road, you may have the right to block the road just as you can fence your yard or garden--unless it has been used by the public for more than 20 years, in which case it may have become a public right-of-way. If you could obtain names, it could be helpful for you to contact the police to find the individuals and explain to them that a witness (you) reports they are committing a misdemeanor and could wind up in criminal court for their actions.
    Hope that helps
    Donna Engle


    Not a ton of help.

    Yesterday was the final straw for me. I witnessed a male and female walking on my private road, and then hiding behind the garage of an elderly neighbor. They were going through their backpacks and exchanging items. I went out to confront them and they ran. Alarm bells were going off in my head so I got in my car and pursued them to the WV trailhead which was several hundred yards down Uniontown Rd. I wanted a picture of them so I could report them if needed.

    When I confronted them, the male pulled a knife on me and put it into my face. When I didn't back down they ran again down the trail. I called the police and stayed on the phone with 911 following them until police apprehended them and they were arrested. It turns out that they had also shoplifted at Safeway so police were already looking for them.

    So with hat in hand I come to you knowledgeable people with the following questions:

    How far can I go to push people off my property? Can I literally block the road and not allow them to go any further, demanding they turn around?

    Can I open carry on this private road that is my property in the city of Westminster?

    If I am again faced with a knife in my face am I allowed to defend myself? Or based on the Castle Doctine am I required to retreat to my house?

    Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    Private property you can open/conceal carry. You'll get varying opinions on where or not bringing a firearm to the situation (confronting a trespasser) is a good idea in terms "how it looks." You have a duty to retreat outside of your home, even on your property, even if threatened with deadly force, if there's a known manner of retreat available to you.


    A reasonable person (especially a Marylander who thinks firearms are scary) might view you "chasing down a kid" who was on your property differently than if you were just raking leaves with your pistol on your hip, when suddenly you were confronted by a knife-wielding trespasser, and in fear of your life, took a shot.

    I don't envy your situation. Criminals are the problem, not people trying to mind their own business in their own property. Good luck.
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    Ok, I watched your video. The "Private Drive" sign that is on your fence looks, to me, like it's possibly referring to the driveway where your cars are parked and people may see the main driveway as a public road. It's going to be difficult keeping people out of there.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    How does that work when you share the driveway, that may be the tough part about open carry on a shared driveway.

    Instead of having the sign on the fence near the road, you could put it on a post sticking up right at the edge of the driveway near the road, I know it may seem like its the same, but being on a post instead of your fence may make it look more official. Heck, 2 posts/signs, once on left and one on right.

    There was a few houses near where I used to live and when the traffic kept using it as a shortcut, they blocked it off with 2x4s on saw horses.
     

    TexDefender

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2017
    1,572
    Hello fellow Marylanders,

    I have an issue with trespassing which I hope you can weigh in on. There is a private road that connects Uniontown Rd in Westminster to several houses. The houses are well away from the road. Unfortunately, many local residents also use this as a short-cut between Uniontown Rd and the Safeway in College Square.

    I have No Trepassing signs that are summarily ignored constantly. When confronted I get all manner of hostility, from verbal to physical assault. The Westminster police have been called several times and are aware of the issue.

    I describe the situation in this video (which was made for a specific pipe-smoking audience on Youtube). Within I show the layout of the road and describe the problem:
    https://youtu.be/WLrB1-MJSLU?t=294

    While doing research online I came upon an opinion piece in the Carroll County Times called
    Legal Matters: Signs, verbal warnings sufficient notice to trespassers
    https://www.carrollcountytimes.com/lifestyle/ph-cc-legal-matters-072316-20170717-story.html

    I wrote an email to Ms. Donna Engle, the author and a lawyer, asking what I could do. In it I repeat what I wrote above, and ask:

    The police, city hall, and the Dept of Planning and Taxation all state that this is a private road. How can I stop these people from trespassing? By the time police arrive trespassers are long gone. Can I physically PREVENT people from walking on this road, forcing them to turn around?


    Her response:

    Hi, Mr. Mittelstedt,
    The road is posted as private,so your trespassers could not argue that they had no idea they were trespassing. Trespass is a criminal offense, so calling the police is a logical step. If no other landowner has use of the road under your permission, and you own the road, you may have the right to block the road just as you can fence your yard or garden--unless it has been used by the public for more than 20 years, in which case it may have become a public right-of-way. If you could obtain names, it could be helpful for you to contact the police to find the individuals and explain to them that a witness (you) reports they are committing a misdemeanor and could wind up in criminal court for their actions.
    Hope that helps
    Donna Engle


    Not a ton of help.

    Yesterday was the final straw for me. I witnessed a male and female walking on my private road, and then hiding behind the garage of an elderly neighbor. They were going through their backpacks and exchanging items. I went out to confront them and they ran. Alarm bells were going off in my head so I got in my car and pursued them to the WV trailhead which was several hundred yards down Uniontown Rd. I wanted a picture of them so I could report them if needed.

    When I confronted them, the male pulled a knife on me and put it into my face. When I didn't back down they ran again down the trail. I called the police and stayed on the phone with 911 following them until police apprehended them and they were arrested. It turns out that they had also shoplifted at Safeway so police were already looking for them.

    So with hat in hand I come to you knowledgeable people with the following questions:

    How far can I go to push people off my property? Can I literally block the road and not allow them to go any further, demanding they turn around?

    Can I open carry on this private road that is my property in the city of Westminster?

    If I am again faced with a knife in my face am I allowed to defend myself? Or based on the Castle Doctine am I required to retreat to my house?

    Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

    Sir, I'm not a lawyer. But what if you put in a gate like we had back in Texas. The gate was design so that it had multiple locks on it. Removing any one lock allowed the gate to open.
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,015
    Harford County
    Sir, I'm not a lawyer. But what if you put in a gate like we had back in Texas. The gate was design so that it had multiple locks on it. Removing any one lock allowed the gate to open.

    That would probably work great but I'll be damned if I would want to stop and lock/unlock a gate everytime I left the house or came home
     

    ironpony

    Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    7,191
    Davidsonville
    I have heard of the “use by public” thing and believe it to be less than 20 years. This is from an attorney and in Anne Arundel county but please take this as hearsay, it was a long time ago.

    Good luck
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    I also live on a private road, with only two homes serviced by it.

    Myself and my neighbor have gotten really good at making people uncomfortable when they think they're going to pull in and sit in their cars. He has an infant and wife that are home alone while he works, myself and my wife work FROM home most days and keep an eye on things as far as people pulling down into the lane. I also have a remote driveway sensor that alerts us to people entering the driveway, gives us a little heads up.

    In your case, maybe a little section of cheap yellow/plastic chain between two cones? Easy enough to get out and move (for people who belong there), but, a much better visual deterrent for those who DON'T belong.
     

    BugLaden

    Member
    Mar 8, 2016
    27
    Littlestown, PA
    Who owns the road? You state "my property." Is it clearly on your deed? It has to be on someone's deed.

    The road "officially" doesn't exist on the tax records. No one pays property taxes on it. In my conversations with Dept of Tax and Assessments in Westminster they consider it a private piece of property accessible only to the houses surrounding it that need to use to access their property. City Hall and Westminster Police both looked into it as well and have confirmed. It a very strange situation.

    Ok, I watched your video. The "Private Drive" sign that is on your fence looks, to me, like it's possibly referring to the driveway where your cars are parked and people may see the main driveway as a public road. It's going to be difficult keeping people out of there.

    How does that work when you share the driveway, that may be the tough part about open carry on a shared driveway.

    Instead of having the sign on the fence near the road, you could put it on a post sticking up right at the edge of the driveway near the road, I know it may seem like its the same, but being on a post instead of your fence may make it look more official. Heck, 2 posts/signs, once on left and one on right.

    There was a few houses near where I used to live and when the traffic kept using it as a shortcut, they blocked it off with 2x4s on saw horses.

    I agree the sign is not in the optimal place, but there is a twin on the other side of the fence, viewable by people coming in the opposite direction.

    We tried posting signs on posts to make it more obvious. These were ripped out of the ground and stolen. I'm considering fixing a sign in the middle of that "fence alley" stating they are now trespassing, similar to this:
    1411587550201


    Sir, I'm not a lawyer. But what if you put in a gate like we had back in Texas. The gate was design so that it had multiple locks on it. Removing any one lock allowed the gate to open.

    That's not a half-bad idea, albeit a costly one. I'll have to look into that.

    Is that a new fence around your house? Do you know where your property line is? The state website shows the driveway in front of your house all the way to your neighbors driveway to be on public property. https://gisapps.dnr.state.md.us/MERLIN/index.html

    Yes I put that fence in so I wouldn't have to watch people blatantly trespassing. I went to that site. What option do I flip on to see that it's public? As above, the Dept of T&A say it's not public.

    Would your neighbor be open to building a fence to block the path?
    This is the exact route I am currently trying to go. Last year when I tried to talk to her she was not open to it, fearing repercussion by the trespassers. She's elderly, disabled, and alone, and wants NO trouble. But I hope to change her mind. I'm trying to find a situation to confront trespassers in the interim.
     

    TexDefender

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2017
    1,572
    That would probably work great but I'll be damned if I would want to stop and lock/unlock a gate everytime I left the house or came home

    Concur, but that is what we had. You could just leave the gate open, and then lock it when them critters come in too. LOL! That would give the sheriff the time to get there. Post a No Trespassing sign on the hinged side of the gate. Plus if you have large animals it would be good and a extra piece of security. This assumes the property is fenced. Burglars will not like it as they would have to cut a lock, which would be odd to anyone that lives there or hump their haul down to the fence on foot. Most, not all, will just move on to a easier target.
     

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