I'm done with Freestate

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  • Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Thank you for the info! I think my son and I will attend the April 10 new member orientation. It's only a little over an hour drive, which I'll gladly make for a nice outdoor range.

    I would not wait until April.

    They will hold orientations until all the slots are filled.

    Then you have to wait until next year.
     
    I haven’t been there ,but a colleague took their ccw training there. That almost seems like an oxymoron. A gun store that prohibits ccw and would give a permit holder a hard time. You would think that would be a portion of their business they are sending down the road. Well, they lost any future business with me for sure, I don’t disarm for anyone unless it’s a prohibited area and unlawful or commanded by LE. Thanks for the spared aggravation.
     

    csxt602

    Active Member
    Oct 29, 2020
    132
    Essex, MD
    I would not wait until April.

    They will hold orientations until all the slots are filled.

    Then you have to wait until next year.

    Unfortunately, I already have plans on March 7, so the April slot is the next time that I could go. If they fill up before then, then I guess we just wait longer.
     

    71Chevelle427

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 19, 2015
    3,298
    B'More County, Maryland
    It’s sad to see a local range go downhill like that.

    I was a member for years without issue. When I couldn’t get a lane for hours and saw lots of unsafe behavior I canceled my membership.

    So frustrating to have a convenient place to shoot take such a turn.

    I agree on all points. I went there as a "new" shooter about 6 years ago. Dr. Bob took me into a small classroom and was 100% sure I understood everything he said, whether it be safety related, or functional tips. I was a member for 3 years, with me going, sometimes, 4 times a week. In the last few years I chose not to even consider rejoining. In fact my last year as a member, only went 3 times the whole year. The range is midway between my house and work, and it was awesome going there on the way home. Never, EVER, a big crowd at 3pm, on a weekday. That changed slowly, but surely.

    There really is not any advantages to being a member there any longer, IMHO. A co-worker is a member at Belair Gun Range (formally Horst/McCann), and he said as a member, he gets basically bumped to the front of the line, if there is one...Freestate, you could have spent a grand on 4 memberships, and guess what? You're waiting right alongside all the newbies. Never did think that was right.

    F* Freestate, havent been in there since 2012. Did a lower transfer, pulled out my CCW card for the numbers off it and the counter lady was like "you're a CCW holder", had a fit, said i need to disclose blah blah blah. Its a CCW you idiot, short of me filling out forms for my new lower you wouldn't have known i was carrying.

    On return trip, sign at the door that said "ONLY UNIFORMED OFFICERS MAY CARRY OPEN/CONCEILED".
    .

    Friend of mine, also a member here, is current LE and normally "plainclothes", and was given a bunch of lip, due to that stupid sign...

    Had I expected this I never would have taken my wife there. Last time I was there it wasn't like this

    I made the HUGE mistake of taking my wife there, on a Saturday, to shoot her Ruger MKII. "Normally", they always put the small, pew-pew stuff, in the lower numbered lanes, like 1, 2, or 3...and the loud stuff, like 12 gauge, or whatever, at Lane 12, and the next few lower numbered. On Saturday, it was, and surely still is, a free for all...She literally was frightened at the noise, and wanted no parts of it. It took me several weeks to get her to try again, this time on a weekday. We were the only shooters, and she loved it...

    Freestate is a victim of it's own success.

    That guy was putting holes in the next lane's targets.

    Well, I am also guilty of shooting the guy next to me's targets, but that was due to the 50# trigger pull on the POS S&W Sigma pistol I bought from Scott's a half dozen years ago...lol.

    I shot quite a bit at Freestate when they first opened. I haven't shot there in years, despite living 15 minutes from the place.

    Strike one was simple overcrowding.

    Second strike was pricing relative to my use. I was a member for the first year or two that they offered membership, but once I started using the range less because of crowding/wait times, it was no longer a value to me.
    .

    Same here...Once the advantage of membership ceased to exist, I have ceased to go there.

    I remember when Freestate first opened. Walked in the second day they were open, talked to Randy and Mark for probably an hour. Great guys. Bought a year membership as soon as they had that program. Went regularly, often several times a week. I took my mom, dad, brother, and other friends several times. My wife also loved to go there with me. I always met pleasant, safe people at the range that you could strike up a good conversation with. Tried other guns that people had and allowed others to try mine. It was what shooting is meant to be. Safe fun and practice for family and friends. It was a fantastic range. As someone here said, it is a victim of its own success. The people that frequent the range now aren't just inexperienced new shooters. They are down right stupid and careless. They know it all already and can not be correct even when clearly in the wrong. My experience with a lot of the people behind the counter has often left much to be desired. Never short on advice, regardless if it was not needed or even completely wrong. Agency training has also brought in some less that pleasant people. I know things change and I am happy for Mark and Randy's success. Im also happy that others still find this range satisfactory. But, I miss the old days. I miss when it was small and family oriented. I miss when idiots didn't know about the place. I still go back once in a while. I never get to enjoy myself like I used to and it only reminds me of how much I miss the old range from 10 years ago. Sometimes I hate change.

    Agree with you Matt.
    When I first went there, was pretty impressed with the management, and facility. I considered joining, but wanted to try another place first...to get a comparison...We went to Horst & McCann, and I was so disappointed in that place, I joined Freestate the next day.

    Now, I choose to simply not shoot, at all, anywhere...
    I actually have a $50 Freestate Gift Certificate from Christmas 2019, that I'll probably never use.
     

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    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    I've been browsing this thread as it has gone along. I've never been to Freestate - don't even know where it is specifically. However, one thing kind of bothers me about that whole setup, and that's allowing the use of cell phones on the range itself.

    Clearly I'm not the only one who believes this is a bad idea because it's been stated before in this thread. I know that Select Fire was fanatical about not allowing cell phones even in the building - you couldn't cross the threshold of the shop without one of the guys behind the counter yelling at you to leave your phone in the car. I went into Select Fire a grand total of 3 times and only shot there once.

    There are certain things at a public range that I think would probably be a good idea.

    1.) No cell phones on the range - no selfies, no Facebook live, no video, etc. Put it away. Focus on shooting.
    2.) No mag dumps. Mag dumps can be a lot of fun, but for someone who is new to shooting and just getting used to it, mag dumps with something big and boomy can be disconcerting.
    3.) There MUST be an RO on the range, and that RO must be paying attention. I'm not saying they should be in everyone's business all the time, but you can't be an effective RO if you aren't in the room. You also can't be an effective RO if you're smoking and joking with one of the regulars who is in a lane.

    One of the things that has been bothering me recently, and I see this even from guys I consider to be "gun guys" is a general lack of muzzle awareness. Maybe it was the way I grew up - my Dad was a lifelong firearms enthusiast, which meant that he spent a lot of time at ranges, and at one point he was a certified NRA instructor. From the time I was little, muzzle awareness was instilled and reinforced - Lord help me if I violated it. I see it all the time though - people just not considering where the muzzle is pointed, or at whom, and it's kind of scary. It matters not if it's unloaded - EVERY gun is loaded, even if they aren't.

    Maybe I'll have to give Freestate a visit myself to see for myself how things are.
     

    71Chevelle427

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 19, 2015
    3,298
    B'More County, Maryland
    Not using it is free money to them. Go buy a box of 22.

    Yeah, you're right, but I don't own a 22.

    I had originally wanted to rent one of the "machine guns", but waited too long. Since you have to buy their ammo for a rental, that will never happen. Not sure how much their .223 goes for, but their 9mm is $40/box, according to my co-worker who went there to shoot his new G-19.

    Now that I am thinking about it, I may drive by this afternoon and just buy something random
     

    71Chevelle427

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 19, 2015
    3,298
    B'More County, Maryland
    3.) There MUST be an RO on the range, and that RO must be paying attention. I'm not saying they should be in everyone's business all the time, but you can't be an effective RO if you aren't in the room. You also can't be an effective RO if you're smoking and joking with one of the regulars who is in a lane.

    Maybe I'll have to give Freestate a visit myself to see for myself how things are.

    Well, you're definitely NOT going to see that...I've been there literally hundreds of times and the "RO", is whomever may be taking a quick glance at the lane cameras from inside the office near the showroom.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    Well, you're definitely NOT going to see that...I've been there literally hundreds of times and the "RO", is whomever may be taking a quick glance at the lane cameras from inside the office near the showroom.
    To me that's a no-go. Clearly this comes as nothing new to anyone else here, but there's no way an RO can react quickly to handle a blatantly unsafe situation if they aren't there on the range itself keeping an eye on things. That's like only having a lifeguard who stays in the pool house and only looks up out of the window occasionally to make sure everything is copacetic. (My daughter worked as a lifeguard for a few summers - it was surprising to me just how often she jumped in the pool to help a struggling kid, and she was constantly working to keep the teenage kids in line.)

    Without an RO on the range there's no effective enforcement of the rules of the range, and people are asshats - just like at swimming pools there are always going be a few who either don't know enough to stay within the rules, or are blatantly trying to disregard them because they think rules shouldn't apply to them for some reason or other.

    These are all my personal opinions of course, but I don't think they are too far off the mark.
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,459
    MD
    Last time I went to the NRA Range, I had the opposite issue with RSOs. Their rule about "one uncased gun at a time" nearly got me thrown out when I opened the second case before I closed the first one. Still, it was a clean, safe range and they were polite, but they took their jobs very seriously.
     

    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,608
    White Marsh, MD
    Last time I went to the NRA Range, I had the opposite issue with RSOs. Their rule about "one uncased gun at a time" nearly got me thrown out when I opened the second case before I closed the first one. Still, it was a clean, safe range and they were polite, but they took their jobs very seriously.

    This is the balance

    We all know we want an RSO who runs a tight ship for safety

    But then some of them want to be pricks and go over the top just because they're in charge

    This is reflective of many positions in society
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Clear and concise and you could replace the name of that range with many others out there in the retail indoor range business and be somewhat accurate. Indoor ranges with a confined nature and higher risk make me always pay a lot more attention to surroundings and behaviors of others.

    This. Sure some do better than others. IMHO it is the general nature of commercial ranges open to the public. Outdoor ranges (at least that have RSOs on duty) tend to be a bit safer from the clientele aspect either being a little more experience or at least less "mugging for a picture/video" for their friends.

    If you need or want lower volume use and/or a more competent environment you must join a private range. In some cases that means paying more, in others it doesn't depending on how operated (annual fee, vs annual + per visit). I'd imagine the new place in Baltimore Co (AA?) with the extremely high prices is a much more relaxed environment, I'd hope with competent RSO's, more space between lanes, etc.

    Our hobby isn't cheap. That said, you have to ask yourself, does $150-300 a year to be a member at a private range somewhere beat out paying $20-50 for an hour/visit at a commercial range.

    Sure it is outdoor (which I prefer) and my range is a bit of a drive from me, but I was the only person there for the two hours I was there in the middle of the day. The sign in sheet for the entire week before had maybe a dozen names on the sheet. Sure, on a weekend in the summer there might be 40-60 people rotate through the rifle and pistol ranges (maybe more on a really busy day), but I've yet to have a time in the 2.5yrs I've been a member have to wait for an open pistol or rifle bench and only on rare occasions run in to a mild (but so far never dangerous) idiot.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,466
    MoCo
    Last time I went to the NRA Range, I had the opposite issue with RSOs. Their rule about "one uncased gun at a time" nearly got me thrown out when I opened the second case before I closed the first one. Still, it was a clean, safe range and they were polite, but they took their jobs very seriously.
    I had a conversation with an NRA Range RO several years ago about their strict policies and enforcement. The RO told me that of all the ranges in the U.S., they may be the one most under the microscope. If anything happens there, anything at all, it will be splashed all over the media as evidence that if the preeminent gun organization in the country can't run a safe range, no one can.
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,459
    MD
    I had a conversation with an NRA Range RO several years ago about their strict policies and enforcement. The RO told me that of all the ranges in the U.S., they may be the one most under the microscope. If anything happens there, anything at all, it will be splashed all over the media as evidence that if the preeminent gun organization in the country can't run a safe range, no one can.

    This is indeed doubtlessly true.
     

    Bertfish

    Throw bread on me
    Mar 13, 2013
    17,608
    White Marsh, MD
    I had a conversation with an NRA Range RO several years ago about their strict policies and enforcement. The RO told me that of all the ranges in the U.S., they may be the one most under the microscope. If anything happens there, anything at all, it will be splashed all over the media as evidence that if the preeminent gun organization in the country can't run a safe range, no one can.

    This is unfortunate but makes complete sense
     

    Steel Hunter

    Active Member
    Nov 10, 2019
    548
    Ranges should never have specified rate of fire restrictions. The rule should always be don't be a nuisance or danger to yourself and those around you. It does suck when the guy with the 7.5" 5.56 pistol with a muzzle break comes in there and goes to town.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Ranges should never have specified rate of fire restrictions. The rule should always be don't be a nuisance or danger to yourself and those around you. It does suck when the guy with the 7.5" 5.56 pistol with a muzzle break comes in there and goes to town.

    Range I am a member is “whatever is safe and hits the target”. If that is a round a minute or as fast as you can shoot. You may not mag dump, because you aren’t landing your rounds on your target (and moving a pistol target to 3yds doesn’t count).

    Most ranges are operated with the lowest common denominator. Just because the guy with years of experience and training can double tap targets at 50yds off hand with a pistol doesn’t mean every guy can. Ideally an RSO will make a call one guy is being safe and one guy not with it. When it is many shooters and one RSO it is easier and safer for all just to specify a rate of fire and easier to listen for, watch at a glance and discipline for breaking.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,808
    Marylandistan
    They walk down and unobtrusively reconnoiter the pistola range, seemingly at a minimum of once an hour.

    My only interactions I seem to get with the RSO’s at AGC is the scrutiny of my height vs target height and the berm. I’ve got the same standard frame 6’ or so I’ve always had but need to build an extension onto it for more offhand rifle and better flexibility on the pistol range. I’m 6’7” so it works out I’m shooting seated most of the time on the Barnes range at 25yrds. 50yds I can get one 8” target at the top of it, at 100 I mostly shoot steel unless I’m sighting something in.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Range I am a member is “whatever is safe and hits the target”. If that is a round a minute or as fast as you can shoot. You may not mag dump, because you aren’t landing your rounds on your target (and moving a pistol target to 3yds doesn’t count).

    Most ranges are operated with the lowest common denominator. Just because the guy with years of experience and training can double tap targets at 50yds off hand with a pistol doesn’t mean every guy can. Ideally an RSO will make a call one guy is being safe and one guy not with it. When it is many shooters and one RSO it is easier and safer for all just to specify a rate of fire and easier to listen for, watch at a glance and discipline for breaking.

    That is one of the reasons I dropped my AGC membership many years ago.

    They had a 1 round per second limit. I was shooting on the pistol range and the RSO came over on his 4 wheeler to tell me to slow down, I was shooting too fast.

    Funny thing was, I was running my timer and the shot intervals ranged from 1.2 - 1.5 seconds. He did not care, his time sense was more accurate than my shot timer.

    I packed up, left, and never went back.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    That is one of the reasons I dropped my AGC membership many years ago.

    They had a 1 round per second limit. I was shooting on the pistol range and the RSO came over on his 4 wheeler to tell me to slow down, I was shooting too fast.

    Funny thing was, I was running my timer and the shot intervals ranged from 1.2 - 1.5 seconds. He did not care, his time sense was more accurate than my shot timer.

    I packed up, left, and never went back.

    Sad. I've seen guys blazing away with a pistol target holder at 5yds violating the heck out of the spirit of the rule at my range (IWLA Damascus) watching rounds hit all over the backstop, but I've yet to see someone being really unsafe about it. The back stops are REALLY tall hills. Not that I condone their behavior, it is violating the rules for sure. But like 99% of guys follow the basic rule and shoot slow enough to keep their rounds on the target and I've never seen anyone come remotely close to shooting in a way.

    That said, we get periodic reminders of things like "drawing from a holster is not allowed". Which tells me guys are doing that expressly against the rules even if I am not seeing it.

    Honestly the most annoying one (though the least safety issue related) is seeing the about every 2 month email reminder that during the current situation members are only allowed to bring guests who are household family members due to reduced capacity restrictions on the ranges and social distancing. I have absolutely seen several times between sign in sheets and people on the range bringing friends. Seen a couple of time grand parents bringing their grandkids (though I guess it is possible the kids were living with the grandparents. Though same group that were setting up steel rimfire targets at 20 or so yds on the rifle range and shooting steel is not allowed, but I was headed out and no one else was there).

    General level of stupid seems to have gone up the last year, but attendance down since the pandemic started. Way better on average than any trip to a commercial range where I've seen at least one or two actively unsafe things when I've been there if I was there more than 2hrs. But still annoying. Hoping it is something that improves with time.
     

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