Just Comply???????

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  • Dklo

    Active Member
    Dec 20, 2011
    288
    That sir is all I want people to realize. I'm not saying don't do what you gotta do to make it home that night. I just would hate to see someone killed over bravado, it's not worth it.

    100% agree
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    To assume that Leo's say if you comply we will kill less trees is absurd. The goal is prevention and preservation of life.

    I don't know what department you work for or how many robberies/homicides you have been involved in but paperwork would be the least of any Leo's worries.[/

    I dont assume anything. Law Enforcement never advises anyone to resist a robber. They want you to comply and contact the police once the robber has left. No agency would want the liability of advising resistance. I have been a victim of 2 gunpoint robberies. The first one was a 13 year old black kid who stuck a 38 in my face and took a skateboard from me. I was not armed and didn't feel like eating a bullet. The second time my buddy and I was jumped by 8 black guys. One guy hit me in the back of the head with a cane. When I got hit I didn't know we were being jumped so I took two steps forward turned around to punch and had a 357 stuck against my forehead. You may investigate robberies I have been robbed.

    Assuming you know the age of the kid he was caught in your first situation?

    While that's terrible and I really wish you wouldnt have had to endure that and pray you never endure it again your comment about paperwork I found terribly unnerving. Paperwork is the least of my problems, I think I speak for most Leo's here when I say we want nothing more than to catch these people. I've never said ehhhh let that murderer go I hate paperwork.

    A 13 year old with a gun is terribly dangerous as ey don't process consequences like you and I might. I'm glad you were able to endure both instances.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    Having been mugged twice and assaulted twice, the second time I had to go to the ER, I really wish I had at least some pepper spray. Sorry, never gonna happen to me again.
     

    Walter

    Active Member
    May 23, 2010
    868
    By the time you spot and identify a criminal coming at you you are already at a disadvantage. The criminal who chose you as a target has already made up his mind that you are his victim. Of course I could be replying to Rambo or Chuck Norris and not know it. If you are either I pitty the criminal.

    Let me make my post more clear. IF you manage to see the criminal coming towards you (situational awareness), and escape isn't an option, you should be ready to draw right then and there. Don't hesitate to pull your gun to stop him from initiating the attack in the first place. That means pulling your gun before he's already attacking or already has a weapon to your body. It may not always be possible, but in some cases it may be. But this requires situational awareness, and trusting your gut instinct, unless you want to end up like this dumbass below:

    The second time my buddy and I was jumped by 8 black guys. One guy hit me in the back of the head with a cane. When I got hit I didn't know we were being jumped so I took two steps forward turned around to punch and had a 357 stuck against my forehead. You may investigate robberies I have been robbed.

    How the hell don't you see a group of 8 black guys coming for you? Seriously? I've been in your situation before, late at night. I think I even made a post about it on here when it happened. Rambo my ass. I saw them coming and ran the hell away.
     

    deesly1

    Active Member
    Nov 16, 2011
    412
    First let’s get some things clear. The goal of the police is to enforce the law not protect the public. With that, coming from a free state of Pennsylvania where criminals know even grandmas in their walkers are packing, hold ups are less likely to occur.
    But let’s look at the violent criminals. The way it has been explained to me is that criminals fit into 4 categories:

    The Knuckle heads:These are the mischievous criminals of opportunity they see an easy mark and say okay lets attack. Being vigilant and not being stupid can stop this type of crime. These criminals get caught up in crime above their head. Nine time out of ten If faced with a shooting situation they will usually not attack.

    The career criminal:These are your drug dealers, car thieves, pimps, con-men, they know that murder attracts law enforcement, and law enforcement is bad for business. These guys usually kill, only inside of their business arena and flow of money is all that they care about. If killing needs to be done they usually hire a menace the next group.

    Menace to society:(functioning sociopaths)These folks are hanging onto social skill as a functioning premise only. To kill for them is like tying their shoes. It is a way of life that does not faze them. Hit man/ contract killers, usually fall into this category. They have already planned to kill you and will without regard there is no reasoning. A lot of sex criminals exist in this category. These people can kill and go to work the next day.

    Psychopath:These are the people that come into work and kill everyone in the office because it’s Tuesday. The same guy that walks into McDonalds and kill everyone who ordered Big Mac because his pinky toe told him to do it. These guys are the most rare and the most dangerous criminals. There is no debate they usually attack without warning and these attacks end in a violent way.

    I do understand that a criminal can fall into a number of these categories; however this was how it was explained to my group doing a Gang Seminar in 2011. To protect yourself against the knuckle head, Menace and the career criminal, an armed citizen has a chance. However, even the police get caught off guard by the Psychopath.
     

    Dklo

    Active Member
    Dec 20, 2011
    288
    Psychopath:These are the people that come into work and kill everyone in the office because it’s Tuesday. The same guy that walks into McDonalds and kill everyone who ordered Big Mac because his pinky toe told him to do it.

    The very reason I stay out of McDonalds on Tuesdays.....:D
     

    RedViperinMD

    Active Member
    Mar 20, 2011
    211
    MoCo
    I will concede that if more people were armed maybe they would think twice before robbing someone but to tough talk and chest puff chances are your going to lose.

    At some point society and MD will be done a huge favor when our robbing friend(s) will be found all alone at that vacant house with two holes in the back of his head and nobody around who saw anything. While it’s not a legal option for the victim of the initial robbery, it’s still an option. Fear of death is a great crime deterrent on the streets.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Gentlemen while I agree the defeatist attitude given off by the police here isn't one your willing to accept but I think your missing the point.

    So I just reached into my wallet and I have 39 bucks (I never carry cash either). Is your life worth your 39 bucks, a pizza, and some delivery money that isn't even yours?

    I know it's fun to play make believe, "oh I'd get the drop on that thug and kill him dead before he knew what hit him" but, and hate to be the bad news giver, chances are you wouldn't. In 99% of robberies the victim is unharmed (wanna know how I know? Ohhhhh maybe a year on a robbery suppression team). The criminals don't want to hurt you they want your stuff but if you spook a guy with a gun generally bad things happen........ask me how I know?

    I will concede that if more people were armed maybe they would think twice before robbing someone but to tough talk and chest puff chances are your going to lose. It may be a hi-point filled with blazer but I for sure don't want to be on the working end.

    Just asking you to think before acting.

    Interesting. And you most certainly are correct that you are not going to get the drop on a thug pointing a gun at your head. Anyone with an ounce of sense isn't going to try. You mention 99%, but I am wondering if there are hard statistics on the number of robbery victims who are left unharmed, vs the ones who are harmed. And, of course, there is the question of just how do you know whether you will be harmed at the time. Even if it is 99% left unharmed, it would suck to be part of the 1% who are. For example, a colleague of mine was actually chased and then stabbed (and nearly died with the knife wound to the chest) after being robbed. A CCW pistol would have certainly saved him. Similarly, if any of the Starbucks employees had been armed a few years ago, they might still be alive. So, how do you know at the time what the perp. is going to do after robbing you? Some of these guys are just sick and get their kicks from hurting people.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    Interesting. And you most certainly correct that you are not going to get the drop on a thug pointing a gun at your head. Anyone with an ounce of sense isn't going to try. You mention 99%, but I am wondering if there are hard statistics on the number of robbery victims who are left unharmed, vs the ones who are harmed. And, of course, there is the question of just how do you know whether you will be harmed at the time. For example, a colleague of mine was actually chased and then stabbed (and nearly died with the knive wound to the chest) before being robbed. A CCW pistol would have certainly saved him. Similarly, if any of the Starbucks employees had been armed a few years ago, they might still be alive. So, how do you know at the time whether the perp. is going to do after robbing you? Some of these guys are just sick and get their kicks from hurting people.

    If i could answer that question id be a billionaire. I wish i could provide you all that answer of when to know u were going to be harmed. Theres always going to be the outliers where citizens get killed, and I pray its none of u. Just speaking from experience most only want ur stuff.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    If i could answer that question id be a billionaire. I wish i could provide you all that answer of when to know u were going to be harmed. Theres always going to be the outliers where citizens get killed, and I pray its none of u. Just speaking from experience most only want ur stuff.

    I accept that as most certainly true. You can understand, however, that I just may not want to trust my life and limb to the odds that he isn't one of the sickos who also enjoys doing harm. As the vice mayor suggested the other day, I may heal and it is only money. Or I also may be dead.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    I accept that as most certainly true. You can understand, however, that I just may not want to trust my life and limb to the odds that he isn't one of the sickos who also enjoys doing harm. As the vice mayor suggested the other day, I may heal and it is only money. Or I also may be dead.

    Yes sir and i completly understand the sentiment in this thread. I just dont think most people here understand the complexity of the situation as it unfolds. Again I agree an armed society would be a deterrent. Ill also say that id never advise anyone not to do what they deemed necessary to make it home to their family.

    Its a tough situation with a judgement call only the victim can make. The only thing im really advocating is thinking before acting on bravado can save ur life
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    Gentlemen while I agree the defeatist attitude given off by the police here isn't one your willing to accept but I think your missing the point.

    So I just reached into my wallet and I have 39 bucks (I never carry cash either). Is your life worth your 39 bucks, a pizza, and some delivery money that isn't even yours?

    I know it's fun to play make believe, "oh I'd get the drop on that thug and kill him dead before he knew what hit him" but, and hate to be the bad news giver, chances are you wouldn't. In 99% of robberies the victim is unharmed (wanna know how I know? Ohhhhh maybe a year on a robbery suppression team). The criminals don't want to hurt you they want your stuff but if you spook a guy with a gun generally bad things happen........ask me how I know?

    I will concede that if more people were armed maybe they would think twice before robbing someone but to tough talk and chest puff chances are your going to lose. It may be a hi-point filled with blazer but I for sure don't want to be on the working end.

    Just asking you to think before acting.

    this logic can be used for many different crimes. how about rape? "Hey, the guy just wants to bang and not kill you." Or, "hey, he just wants to break into your house and steal your dog and Tv. Is your life worth the family dog and TV?"

    I don't want to play these games. I don't want to have to guess if this criminal is having a really bad day or holding a gun with no bullets. There are PLENTY of assualts that prove enough to me that people physically hurt others.

    JUST COMPLY APPLIES TO NEARLY EVERY CRIME EXCEPT MAYBE ATTEMPTED MURDER AND EVEN THEN IT MAY APPLY.

    Not in the society I want to live in.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    this logic can be used for many different crimes. how about rape? "Hey, the guy just wants to bang and not kill you." Or, "hey, he just wants to break into your house and steal your dog and Tv. Is your life worth the family dog and TV?"

    I don't want to play these games. I don't want to have to guess if this criminal is having a really bad day or holding a gun with no bullets. There are PLENTY of assualts that prove enough to me that people physically hurt others.

    JUST COMPLY APPLIES TO NEARLY EVERY CRIME EXCEPT MAYBE ATTEMPTED MURDER AND EVEN THEN IT MAY APPLY.

    Not in the society I want to live in.

    Leos are open to public suggestions on how to solve the problem.

    BTW considering the current gun climate in md the whining constant bitch of cc isn't going to cut it at the current moment. I say that cuz id LOVE to be able to advise my citizens of good working ideas. Obviously cc isn't and option for most at this current time so shoot me some ideas. Im a roast baste me.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Yes sir and i completly understand the sentiment in this thread. I just dont think most people here understand the complexity of the situation as it unfolds. Again I agree an armed society would be a deterrent. Ill also say that id never advise anyone not to do what they deemed necessary to make it home to their family.

    Its a tough situation with a judgement call only the victim can make. The only thing im really advocating is thinking before acting on bravado can save ur life

    On that, we are entirely in agreement! Bravado is damn dumb. Run (to safety) if you can. But you can't out run a round and most of these perps are a lot younger than moi so they can probably out run me, even with a knife, as my poor colleague found out to his near demise in upper NW DC. Best advice is situational awareness and stay the hell out of places and circumstances that may pose the risk. But that won't necessarily save you either. I have been threatened and assaulted at night by 3 guys just outside the FBI building walking to the metro -- I didn't get hurt but only because I was able to run a short distance back to DOJ whose entrances are well guarded with armed might. A DOJ employee was knifed a few years during a robbery at the Archives station. And those Starbucks employees, IIRC, were in Georgetown (which isn't soo safe anymore). The only other alternative to hundle in fear in your home (a crappy way to live), but are not home invasions in DC also on the rise along with other robberies? And what is the incidence of bodily harm associated with home invasions of an occupied residence? Until Heller, you couldn't even arm yourself in your home and DC still makes that very difficult.
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    Leos are open to public suggestions on how to solve the problem.

    there ever has been, is, and ever will be crime. Nothing will get rid of it. The most you can do is give those that would be victims the ability to help themselves. There is no "equal footing" in your scenario. I think one can conclude that there is MORE than one reason why armed criminals don't always shoot their victim and compassion ain't exactly at the upper echelon of reasons.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    On that, we are entirely in agreement! Bravado is damn dumb. Run (to safety) if you can. But you can't out run a round and most of these perps are a lot younger than moi so they can probably out run me, even with a knife, as my poor colleague found out to his near demise in upper NW DC. Best advice is situational awareness and stay the hell out of places and circumstances that may pose the risk. But that won't necessarily save you either. I have been threatened and assaulted at night by 3 guys just outside the FBI building walking to the metro -- I didn't get hurt but only because I was able to run a short distance back to DOJ whose entrances are well guarded with armed might. A DOJ employee was knifed a few years during a robbery at the Archives station. And those Starbucks employees, IIRC, were in Georgetown (which isn't soo safe anymore). The only other alternative to hundle in fear in your home (a crappy way to live), but are not home invasions in DC also on the rise along with other robberies? And what is the incidence of bodily harm associated with home invasions of an occupied residence? Until Heller, you couldn't even arm yourself in your home and DC still makes that very difficult.

    Armed home invastions are not on the rise here. They are actualy quite infrequent in this area or D.C. in general. Our robberies are on the rise for sure but most robberies in the area are actually unarmed. It's 3-4 kids who assault 1-2 victims and take stuff rom their pockets. Generally its juveniles and 18 yr olds and they are completly unarmed. In D.C. it's called robbery force and violence and thats whats really on the rise in D.C. robbery wise.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Armed home invastions are not on the rise here. They are actualy quite infrequent in this area or D.C. in general. Our robberies are on the rise for sure but most robberies in the area are actually unarmed. It's 3-4 kids who assault 1-2 victims and take stuff rom their pockets. Generally its juveniles and 18 yr olds and they are completly unarmed. In D.C. it's called robbery force and violence and thats whats really on the rise in D.C. robbery wise.

    I am delighted that home invasions are infrequent. It is not my understanding that they are actually rare. But accepting that, how many of the unarmed robberies result in harm to the victim? 3-4 kids can inflict a tremendous amount of harm with just fists and boots. Is your advice not to resist even the unarmed kids because the odds are that they just want your property? I am trained in unarmed hand to hand combat. If I used those skills on unarmed "kids," I could do a lot of damage, but alas, the law is such that I could be arrested if I did. That's assuming that one of them doesn't also have a knife -- if they do, I would most certainly get cut and you just don't know. So, should a victim just give in and trust to God? What is your advice? I work in DC so your professional opinion would be most valuable to me.
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    well, if you could show that most suspects only intend to run away from the cops and don't want to harm the cops, can I conclude that cops should lose the guns and/or batons? Do cops need to carry guns if they are only doing traffic stops? How far do we want to carry this "just comply" logic?
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,932
    I am delighted that home invasions are infrequent. It is not my understanding that they are actually rare. But accepting that, how many of the unarmed robberies result in harm to the victim? 3-4 kids can inflict a tremendous amount of harm with just fists and boots. Is your advice not to resist even the unarmed kids because the odds are that they just want your property? I am trained in unarmed hand to hand combat. If I used those skills on unarmed "kids," I could do a lot of damage, but alas, the law is such that I could be arrested if I did. That's assuming that one of them doesn't also have a knife -- if they do, I would most certainly get cut and you just don't know. So, should a victim just give in and trust to God? What is your advice? I work in DC so your professional opinion would be most valuable to me.

    No unarmed robberies please fight back while yelling or run like hell. The chances of death in an unarmed robbery are significantly less but i do agree three kids with boots can inflict a lot of damage.

    Trust me in D.C. your not going to get locked up for defending yourself within reason. If someone comes up with a feather and says im the tickle monster prepare to be tickeled and you whip out an AK well come on thats not really defending yourself. Most of you have common sense and I trust you will make the right decision for the situation.
     

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