Stolen guns and liability

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  • CruncherBlock

    Active Member
    Mar 29, 2016
    594
    During my HQL training our instructor gave a scenario where a gun owner who's guns are stolen could be liable if they were not locked up in a safe. I don't know if he is correct or not. I began to really think about that and it occurred to me that a way around any liability is to build ghost guns. You don't register ghost guns, right? So if they are stolen, you are SOL on the parts costs and labor, but not millions in a lawsuit.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    I'm an HQL instructor. Ghost guns, locked guns, etc. do not protect you from liability, particularly civil liability. Civil liability is the wild wild west. If you have a lock box with your gun in it and a kid breaks into your house, destroys the box, takes the gun, and negligently shoots himself in the head, there is nothing stopping his mommy from suing you for everything you own.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    CruncherBlock

    Active Member
    Mar 29, 2016
    594
    Lets say it's not a neighborhood kid but a freelance burglar gets it and sells it to some fellow in the independent pharmaceutical business. Robert Blake's lawyer will get you off the hook. Phil Spector's, not so much.
     

    zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    As long as it doesn't have a tapered barrel in .300 Blackout you should be okay.


    Oh sorry, that's the other made up horseshit thread.



    :toothless
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    Lets say it's not a neighborhood kid but a freelance burglar gets it and sells it to some fellow in the independent pharmaceutical business. Robert Blake's lawyer will get you off the hook. Phil Spector's, not so much.



    Well put. That is the nature of civil liability. That is why credible HQL instructors DO NOT TEACH ABOUT CIVIL LIABILITY. It is not part of the MDSP requirements. We teach you about your responsibility to keep your firearms from unauthorized people as part of criminal liability. We teach you about how you can legally transport your firearms, we do not teach you how to stop your buddy from suing you if he tucks your loaded Glock into his pants and blows his junk off.
     

    CruncherBlock

    Active Member
    Mar 29, 2016
    594
    Well put. That is the nature of civil liability. That is why credible HQL instructors DO NOT TEACH ABOUT CIVIL LIABILITY. It is not part of the MDSP requirements. We teach you about your responsibility to keep your firearms from unauthorized people as part of criminal liability. We teach you about how you can legally transport your firearms, we do not teach you how to stop your buddy from suing you if he tucks your loaded Glock into his pants and blows his junk off.

    Thanks Andrew for clarifying.
     

    knastera

    Just another shooter
    May 6, 2013
    1,484
    Baltimore County
    Thanks Andrew for clarifying.



    No problem. In all seriousness, HQL instructors are not lawyers. Many of us get our certifications my merit of the fact that we are NRA pistol instructors. The NRA specifically forbids us from giving legal advice or addressing the laws of a state because even the best written laws are subject to interpretation, particularly in the People's Republic of Maryland. The MDSP gives us a list of what must be covered from a legal standpoint. Those of us who are relatively intelligent do not go beyond that because we are simply not experts in that very complicated field.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,172
    Outside the Gates
    No problem. In all seriousness, HQL instructors are not lawyers. Many of us get our certifications my merit of the fact that we are NRA pistol instructors. The NRA specifically forbids us from giving legal advice or addressing the laws of a state because even the best written laws are subject to interpretation, particularly in the People's Republic of Maryland. The MDSP gives us a list of what must be covered from a legal standpoint. Those of us who are relatively intelligent do not go beyond that because we are simply not experts in that very complicated field.

    Well said: "Just the facts, ma'am"
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    During my HQL training our instructor gave a scenario where a gun owner who's guns are stolen could be liable if they were not locked up in a safe. I don't know if he is correct or not. I began to really think about that and it occurred to me that a way around any liability is to build ghost guns. You don't register ghost guns, right? So if they are stolen, you are SOL on the parts costs and labor, but not millions in a lawsuit.
    No offense OP but when new members start threads like this it raises red flags. Which member of the GA or AG's office are you? :rolleyes:
    Not this again.
    Yep, this again.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    During my HQL training our instructor gave a scenario

    Where did you get your training done? There is one training firm in particular that we have noticed a trend of their students saying almost exactly what you are saying now. This firm has given out factually incorrect information to students in the past, and at present it looks like they're using scare tactics about stuff like gun storage.

    where a gun owner who's guns are stolen could be liable if they were not locked up in a safe. I don't know if he is correct or not. I began to really think about that and it occurred to me that a way around any liability is to build ghost guns. You don't register ghost guns, right? So if they are stolen, you are SOL on the parts costs and labor, but not millions in a lawsuit.

    As was explained above, civil liability is civil liability, and you could be sued by his family if you built Fort Knox in your basement, and then Johnny Goodboy broke in to it and stole a gun and killed himself with it.

    As far as CRIMINAL liability goes, the only statute governing storage in MD says that you must store guns so that an unsupervised child can not have access to them.

    Here is the actual MD code on the subject:

    § 4-104. Child's access to firearms.

    (a) Definitions.-

    (1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.

    (2) "Ammunition" means a cartridge, shell, or other device containing explosive or incendiary material designed and intended for use in a firearm.

    (3) "Child" means an individual under the age of 16 years.

    (4) (i) "Firearm" means a handgun, rifle, shotgun, short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun, as those terms are defined in § 4-201 of this title, or any other firearm.

    (ii) "Firearm" does not include an antique firearm as defined in § 4-201 of this title.

    (b) Exceptions.- This section does not apply if:

    (1) the child's access to a firearm is supervised by an individual at least 18 years old;

    (2) the child's access to a firearm was obtained as a result of an unlawful entry;

    (3) the firearm is in the possession or control of a law enforcement officer while the officer is engaged in official duties; or

    (4) the child has a certificate of firearm and hunter safety issued under § 10-301.1 of the Natural Resources Article.

    (c) Prohibited.- A person may not store or leave a loaded firearm in a location where the person knew or should have known that an unsupervised child would gain access to the firearm.

    (d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to a fine not exceeding $1,000.

    (e) Effect of violation.-


    (1) A violation of this section may not:

    (i) be considered evidence of negligence;

    (ii) be considered evidence of contributory negligence;

    (iii) limit liability of a party or an insurer; or

    (iv) diminish recovery for damages arising out of the ownership, maintenance, or operation of a firearm or ammunition.

    (2) A party, witness, or lawyer may not refer to a violation of this section during a trial of a civil action that involves property damage, personal injury, or death.

    Also, please understand that it gives some people the heebie jeebies when a newer user comes on the forums and starts asking questions about "ghost guns," which is a loaded term. We prefer to refer to them as "80%" guns, or by other terms. "Ghost Gun" is a term invented by the media to make them sound scary and evil.
     

    Brown016

    Active Member
    Mar 28, 2016
    124
    No offense OP but when new members start threads like this it raises red flags. Which member of the GA or AG's office are you? :rolleyes:

    Yep, this again.

    Sounding pretty paranoid with "red flags". It seems like a reasonable question when you consider what is being said at the training and, who better to confirm with than a bunch of dudes that love their guns and follow the issues surrounding them. If you don't know, you ask questions. That's how we learn.

    A guy said similar things at my HQL training. Essentially the same thing information was relayed and the issue of civil liability was stressed..."take pics of your storage device installed along with a date stamp in case anybody tries saying your firearms were not properly stored", etc. I found it to be a helpful reminder that some people suck and will try and get you regardless of your best efforts/actions.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,343
    Don't forget if you own a pickup truck, the only way to go to the range is to tow a trailer with your safe strapped down on it.:rolleyes:
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Sounding pretty paranoid with "red flags". It seems like a reasonable question when you consider what is being said at the training and, who better to confirm with than a bunch of dudes that love their guns and follow the issues surrounding them. If you don't know, you ask questions. That's how we learn.

    I don't mean this in a mean or denigrating way, but there are a lot of people here who forget that sometimes. I was raised around guns. I started shooting a BB gun when I was 7 or 8 years old, and a .22 when I was ten. We used to shoot trap and skeet in the back yard of our house. Literally. A lot of other people here were either raised that way or have been around and into guns long enough that it's easy to forget a time when you didn't know what you know now.

    Combine that with the general atmosphere in Maryland around guns, as well as the fact that it has actually happened in the past that things which are discussed on these forums end up in the public sphere (witness the statements about "the word on the street" during the hearings on the HRPB members recently) and you end up with people who sometimes jump to conclusions that anyone who is new that asks a question is some sort of plant from the anti gun folks.

    I think it's important that we be conscious of the fact that what is said here is public, but I also think that we do ourselves and our community a disservice when we immediately assume that anyone asking what even might be considered a "provocative" question is some kind of spy. It turns people off to the community, and that's bad for all of us.
     

    protegeV

    Ready to go
    Apr 3, 2011
    46,880
    TX
    Not this again.

    ouroboros_classic_round_sticker-r7647cd54a40f4a379986b589a3388959_v9waf_8byvr_324.jpg
     

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