I'm done with Freestate

Having an RO on the range is a good policy and I like it as long as it does not go overboard from helpful to “No Soup For You”. Having members certify for certain things such as steel use, holster use also is a good policy.

Pictures and video I am ok with, as long as the person shooting is not the one holding the video device. Once again an RO should be able to police bad behavior.

I usually have my cell phone out at least once a session (securely set up out of the way) taking video of me on my draw stroke, etc, video is a great training tool when doing live fire practice as well as dry fire practice.

OnTarget banning that is just one more reason I won’t shoot at the range 2 miles from my house. I understand why they do it (bad publicity in a gun control state), but that does not mean that I have to like that they instated a poor blanket policy for the few trouble makers.

Kirkster said:

I usually have my cell phone out at least once a session (securely set up out of the way) taking video of me on my draw stroke, etc, video is a great training tool when doing live fire practice as well as dry fire practice.

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This, IMO, is completely unnecessary - you could film that to your heart's content at home - there's no reason to do it at the range unless you like to watch it back later to assure yourself that you're a gun-totin' stud. Why do I believe this? I believe that because I have thousands and thousands of hours in the practice room with a musical instrument where I'm essentially "dry firing" and figuring out what's what before I put it out there on a performance.

I like to take a picture of the target after I've shot at it and brought it back just to have a record of how good or bad my day was.

Pinecone said:

That is one of the reasons I dropped my AGC membership many years ago.

They had a 1 round per second limit. I was shooting on the pistol range and the RSO came over on his 4 wheeler to tell me to slow down, I was shooting too fast.

Funny thing was, I was running my timer and the shot intervals ranged from 1.2 - 1.5 seconds. He did not care, his time sense was more accurate than my shot timer.

I packed up, left, and never went back.

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When was that? They certainly haven’t had that in at least 7-8 years


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trickg said:

This, IMO, is completely unnecessary - you could film that to your heart's content at home - there's no reason to do it at the range unless you like to watch it back later to assure yourself that you're a gun-totin' stud. Why do I believe this? I believe that because I have thousands and thousands of hours in the practice room with a musical instrument where I'm essentially "dry firing" and figuring out what's what before I put it out there on a performance.

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Tough to watch how well you mitigate recoil watching a video of yourself doing dry practice.

trickg said:

This, IMO, is completely unnecessary - you could film that to your heart's content at home - there's no reason to do it at the range unless you like to watch it back later to assure yourself that you're a gun-totin' stud. Why do I believe this? I believe that because I have thousands and thousands of hours in the practice room with a musical instrument where I'm essentially "dry firing" and figuring out what's what before I put it out there on a performance.

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hogarth said:

Tough to watch how well you mitigate recoil watching a video of yourself doing dry practice.

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Exactly... muzzle rise, overcompensation for recoil, form issues.

There are dozens of sports where people critique and correct their performance through the use of video. Shooting is no different.

rbird7282 said:

When was that? They certainly haven’t had that in at least 7-8 years


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Not in my first go around as a member there from 2010-13 either or now.

Kirkster said:

Exactly... muzzle rise, overcompensation for recoil, form issues.

There are dozens of sports where people critique and correct their performance through the use of video. Shooting is no different.

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Maybe trickg plays air guitar?

hogarth said:

Tough to watch how well you mitigate recoil watching a video of yourself doing dry practice.

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Kirkster said:

Exactly... muzzle rise, overcompensation for recoil, form issues.

There are dozens of sports where people critique and correct their performance through the use of video. Shooting is no different.

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Are you competing? If so, would it also be a good approach, at a public range, to use a stopwatch and time yourself?

If you're a top competing competitor perhaps you could bring a coach who could give you pointers on the spot?

If you're a top competing contender, I get it. If you aren't....perhaps you're over-thinking it?

hogarth said:

Maybe trickg plays air guitar?

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I'm a pro-level trumpet player, and a better than average drummer.

trickg said:

Are you competing? If so, would it also be a good approach, at a public range, to use a stopwatch and time yourself?

If you're a top competing competitor perhaps you could bring a coach who could give you pointers on the spot?

If you're a top competing contender, I get it. If you aren't....perhaps you're over-thinking it?


I'm a pro-level trumpet player, and a better than average drummer.

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I cant speak for Kirkster, but I compete, I use a shot timer (not a stopwatch) to time different things when I go to the range, and yes, I occasionally use video.

Professional coaching? One of the best I know, John Shrek McPhee, even in person, uses video to dissect what the shooter is doing, since with super slow mo he can then see what escapes his naked eye. AND, if you don't want to work with him in person, you can send him video of yourself drawing and shooting and he'll email you back his pointers. So there are a number of reasons to use video, shot timers, etc., at the range.

Before you became a pro-level trumpet player, did you not work to improve your skills? Or were you just born with these skills? Why hate on someone who wants to improve even if they'll never make it to super duper high levels?

I read one sentence.

hogarth said:

Before you became a pro-level trumpet player, did you not work to improve your skills? Or were you just born with these skills? Why hate on someone who wants to improve even if they'll never make it to super duper high levels?

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My situation is actually a bit different from most musicians. Most musicians have private teachers all along the way, then they go to college where they are exposed to more upper level music and private instruction, then they go out into the world and try to be a player.

My situation was different because of how and where I grew up. I grew up in a small town in rural Nebraska, so I just practiced on my own, and was intuitive enough to be able to get myself to a place by the end of high school where I qualified for the Army Band program. After I got into the band program, I'd get pointers along the way from more seasoned players, but again, I spent a lot of time on my own in the practice room. Eventually I wound up in a premier Army Band ensemble.

I'd like to think it was less about having talent as it was about developing a work ethic toward improvement and being intuitive enough to be able to dissect what I was doing with the instrument on my own. I'm kind of the exception, although there are a number of famous musicians out of the Big Band era who did very similar things, and frankly at a higher level than what I've achieved.

To be fair, when I started drumming, we were at a place in technology where every time I played when I was first learning, I was able to get a recording from what was comin through the sound board. They weren't always the pleasant thing to listen to - they weren't really mixed to sound good, it was just what was coming off of the board raw - but it was enough that I was able to take those recordings so I could analyze them to figure out not only what I needed to improve, but also to reinforce what I was doing well. I also use recordings as both a vocalist and a trumpet player on various projects - there's nothing like a recording to let you know exactly what you're doing because the recording doesn't like - it tells it like it is.

My point against the use of a cell phone at the range is that most of the goofballs on the range aren't doing it for analysis and coaching purposes - they are doing it so they have social media fodder, and that, IMO, is dangerous. If a person is using it for legit coaching and analysis purposes, I guess I have no real issue with that. The problem comes when it's the few who abuse it that screw it up for everyone else. I just don't want to get shot due to negligence because some yahoo the next lane over is taking selfies and videos so they can post it on social media, and they aren't paying attention to their shooting safety.

Why don't ranges have different rules for different customers based on their skill level? Just too concerned with making money? Seems like an easy thing to do. You mentioned a go-kart track. Even there you need to take a basic safety course and can work your way up the ladder of skill levels and they will increase the speed of the karts.

I also think a lot of ranges care more about making money than safety. It seems the safety checks abruptly stop once their asses have been covered legally. But I haven't been to an indoor range in years so I could be wrong.

Freestate has always sucked. Been once, 8 years ago. never had any desire to return

Boards01 said:

Freestate has always sucked. Been once, 8 years ago. never had any desire to return

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Same, it was an absolute disaster. Haven’t returned.

Pinecone said:

That is one of the reasons I dropped my AGC membership many years ago.

They had a 1 round per second limit. I was shooting on the pistol range and the RSO came over on his 4 wheeler to tell me to slow down, I was shooting too fast.

Funny thing was, I was running my timer and the shot intervals ranged from 1.2 - 1.5 seconds. He did not care, his time sense was more accurate than my shot timer.

I packed up, left, and never went back.

Click to expand...

I've been an RSO at AGC for the last 6 years and in that time we have never had a "rounds per second" rule. The rule we DO have is that every round you fire on any of the ranges, no matter how quickly you fire, must hit the Impact Area (the dirt wall at the end of the range). Said differently, you must always be firing in a controlled way, regardless of how quickly you are pulling the trigger. Rapid firing will always attract the attention of the RSO who will observe if your rounds are hitting the Impact Area. If they are, no problem. If they are hitting the grass or going up into the woods, you will be cited with a rule infraction which will be reported to your Club. If the behavior continues, you will be told to pack up and leave for the day.

Not renewing my membership

I am currently a member there and numerous times I have seen shooters load their weapons at the steel tables behind the lane, turn with a loaded weapon, and return to the shooting lane. I have told individuals to load at their lane in addition to informing staff. Range safety is everyone's responsibility in my opinion. at times I purposely stand back and observe before unpacking and shooting to see if their are any knuckleheads I have to pay extra attention to. Never seen an rso stand in, rare walk throughs occur but usually when they want to test fire something. I joined because the location of the range is close to me however I will be looking to join somewhere else once my membership expires.

Kirkster said:

Having an RO on the range is a good policy and I like it as long as it does not go overboard from helpful to “No Soup For You”. Having members certify for certain things such as steel use, holster use also is a good policy.

Pictures and video I am ok with, as long as the person shooting is not the one holding the video device. Once again an RO should be able to police bad behavior.

I usually have my cell phone out at least once a session (securely set up out of the way) taking video of me on my draw stroke, etc, video is a great training tool when doing live fire practice as well as dry fire practice.

OnTarget banning that is just one more reason I won’t shoot at the range 2 miles from my house. I understand why they do it (bad publicity in a gun control state), but that does not mean that I have to like that they instated a poor blanket policy for the few trouble makers.

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Too much common sense, bro! Stop!!!!



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Hopewell Fish & Game is in Stewartstown, PA. just over the line. $100 per year. I've always heard good things.

trickg said:

Are you competing? If so, would it also be a good approach, at a public range, to use a stopwatch and time yourself?

If you're a top competing competitor perhaps you could bring a coach who could give you pointers on the spot?

If you're a top competing contender, I get it. If you aren't....perhaps you're over-thinking it?


I'm a pro-level trumpet player, and a better than average drummer.

Click to expand...

I use a timer, I log my times and performance and also look at trends in my performance to see if I am improving or falling back or just having a bad day, I take classes from time to time and send video to coaches for critique and coaching.

I guess as a pro level musician you never record yourself. Ok...