Working on Pistol Load Accuracy

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  • Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    So, I'm working on getting more accuracy out of my 45ACP pistol loads.

    I started with "what I have" so I can work on my progress.
    I have never really concentrated on Pistol accuracy in the past instead looked at similar factory loads of the same bullet weight and emulated an approximate velocity or with some old milsurp stuff, just looked at lighter pet loads that cycled. Making sure pressures were good and reliability was good.

    I took my ATI 1911 to the range and a pistol rest and ran 10 rounds through a chrono and shot at a target at 25 yards. Stock Iron sights

    ATI 1911 45ACP
    5.4gr W231 200gr Copper washed RN from Xtreme Bullets @ 1.250"
    Avg 838fps StdDev 37fps 108fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 5" @ 25 yards

    5.6gr W231 200gr Copper washed RN from Xtreme Bullets @ 1.250"
    Avg 843fps StdDev 19fps 67fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 5" @ 25 yards

    I also brought 2 9mm Pistols that have decent crisp triggers.

    Star B
    4.0gr Bullseye 124gr FMJ RN
    Avg 1054fps StdDev 14fps 44fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 5" @ 25 yards

    4.0gr Bullseye 128gr Powder Coated RN Wheel Weight Lead (10-12BH)
    Avg 1093fps StdDev 12fps 36fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 3"

    Taurus PT199 with Target Sights
    4.0gr Bullseye 124gr FMJ RN
    Avg 1056fps StdDev 18fps 70fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 5" @ 25 yards

    4.0gr Bullseye 128gr Powder Coated RN Wheel Weight Lead (10-12BH)
    Avg 1079fps StdDev 12fps 41fps Extreme Spread
    Groups were about 4" @ 25 yards

    I was surprised that the PC bullets did better in the 9mm but the velocity of course was different w/o the Jacket. I could stand to do a latter/ocw with that powder (or different powders).

    The 45ACP is a cheap 1911 but I don't know how much that has to do with it from the bench.

    My next step really is to look at a .452 Mold for the 45 and cast up maybe a SWC? I have read how they shoot better in a 45. I can powder coat (Prefer) or Xlox coat them.

    Powders I have to choose from are Bullseye, W231, Unique and Power Pistol Not sure which one would be more favorable to start with.

    Also, using iron sights, not sure how much I'm handicapped with that. I could take a 22 with a red dot and see how good that shoots compared to the same pistol/bullet and iron sights on the same pistol rest just to compare. I can do that with my Browning Buckmark.

    Just not sure what my expectations SHOULD be with the 45, should I be able to get 3" or even 2" groups out of a good 1911 with iron sights from a pistol rest?

    Thoughts?
    Thx

    EDIT: I do have this mold that I use for my 45 Colt Cowboy loads. All of the bullets I have already cast are soft lead though. I tried the soft lead Powder coated just once and it was all over the place. I could run some with harder lead though and see how well it shoots.
    https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-452-200-rf.html
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,880
    Baseline Questions :

    1. What size groups do you usually shoot with that set up/ technique , with pistol & load of known accuracy potential ?

    2. What size groups does your ATI 1911 shoot using loads of known accuracy potential ( ie shoots particular group sizes in other 1911 that is generally accurate) ?
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    1. I have not punched paper offhand in probably over a year w/ Pistols I have been shooting a 12" Torso target @ 25 yards.
    I plan to get a baseline grouping measurement with my reloads with the above pistols sometime soon

    2. As stated above, Last time I shot at paper was probably with factory rounds and only 25 feet. I don't recall the group size.

    My goal is to get better at shooting 25 yards at targets 2 handed and 1 handed with 22LR, 9mm and 45ACP
    Having reasonably accurate 45ACP gun/bullet I think is missing from my arsenal which I plan to rectify.
     

    bpm32

    Active Member
    Nov 26, 2010
    675
    The standard Bullseye Pistol accuracy load is 185GR lead semiwadcutters with 3.7-4.4GR Bullseye, but 231 also works great. 200GR wadcutters, use a bit less powder—same accuracy.

    The standard jacketed load is 185GR hollow points (like Nosler or Zero) with VV N310 (~4.1GR) or Bullseye again (~4.4GR).
     

    Speedluvn

    Active Member
    Dec 23, 2019
    340
    Baltimore County
    The standard Bullseye Pistol accuracy load is 185GR lead semiwadcutters with 3.7-4.4GR Bullseye, but 231 also works great. 200GR wadcutters, use a bit less powder—same accuracy.

    The standard jacketed load is 185GR hollow points (like Nosler or Zero) with VV N310 (~4.1GR) or Bullseye again (~4.4GR).

    No feeding issues with the 200 grain wadcutter?
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,880
    Isolate variables .

    As I am understanding , there are presently three variables : Your "bench" shooting techniques , the accuracy of your gun ( 1911) , and the accuracy of your handloads . You testing is limited by the least accurate of the three . ie a 5 inch grouping handgun won't be able to differentiate between 1 inch and 2 inch ammo, etc .

    What is the most accurate pistol you own, or can borrow, perhaps a target .22 ? Test your bench techniques with that to establish a baseline for that , then larger groups than that could be attributed to the gun & ammo .

    Do any friends/ fellow gun club members/ MDS friends have an accurate .45acp and loads that shoot accurately in their guns ? Then test that ammo in your gun to give yourself a goal for your load development .

    *****************8

    I could give some generalized ranges of expectations for 1911's , but I know that John from Maryland is knowledgeable about accurizing 1911 , and accurate handloads , so perhaps he could share some of his observations and expectations for stock 1911's here .
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,731
    Socialist State of Maryland
    David,

    When you say stock sights, are they stock WWII military type with the really small front sight? If so, that may be part of your problem as it is hard to use those for precision shooting. Do all your loads group to the same POI? 4.0 of Bullseye and a 200 grain bullet used to be a standard target load when I was shooting Bullseye back in the '70's. Of course we didn't guns with stock military sights. :rolleyes:

    I use the Lee 200 grain RFN bullet for some of my .45s. In my 1927 Colt, with a Kart barrel and more modern sights, it will make one ragged hole at 20 yards with 4.4 gns of Bullseye. and the Lee bullet. I would try changing bullets first as I never liked copper washed bullets for accuracy. They were good when I shot IDPA and USPSA stuff but not when I was shooting steel for money.

    I have a bunch made up and Xloxed if you want to try them.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Bigfoot, as mentioned I was thinking to take my Buckmark and run a red dot then compare that to the stock sights.
    That is the most accurate pistol I have (I can use CCI Green Tag or Ely Match). One handed I probably am better with the Wife's 22/45 Lite or an old High Standard.

    The 1911 is this:
    https://www.americantactical.us/939/detail.html

    Front sight is .090" wide and the rear notch is .115" Pretty much the same as my 1911A1 but a taller front and taller rear/deeper notch.
    The Buckmark and the Taurus PT99 has more target sights and easier to see and align.

    John, the POI was low for both 1911 loads groups were so big that it was hard to tell the center

    I could stand to bring my "eye pal" diopter attachment to my glasses next time to help with the sight alignment.

    John, I'll let you know about the Lee 200 RFN offer, I'm planning to do some molding this weekend and making some more using harder lead than the last time is on my list.

    I also have about 150 of these I could load up just to see how they shoot.
    9419d10edc39662dba6a1c452bc02bf8.jpg
     

    bpm32

    Active Member
    Nov 26, 2010
    675
    No feeding issues with the 200 grain wadcutter?

    Usually not with modern chambers, but they are still 1911s. I mean, I love ‘em and all, but they are the King of the Three Point Jam.

    It’s kind of incredible, but Bullseye guns will usually have a massive dot riding the slide with a weak 10-lb recoil spring and they’ll be shooting semiwadcutter powderpuff loads......and everything will be fine for thousands and thousands of rounds.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I would say there is no need to chase an accurate load.

    Target shooters have done that many times over. Several have been mentioned here.

    If you and your pistol do not shoot those loads to less than 2", then you need to fix the pistol or the shooter.
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    1911 45.. Loads
    Clark Custom, Bar-sto Barrel Bomar Rib sight
    Colt National Match basically the same loads
    Brass : Winchester (WCC) or Federal (1X)
    Primers: CCI-300
    Powder: W-231
    Charge: 5.2grs.
    Bullet : Cast H&G 68 style thrown from a MiHec mold (Solid Pin)
    P.C. : Yes


    Brass : Winchester (WCC) or Federal (1X)
    Primers: CCI-300
    Powder: W-231
    Charge: 5.2grs.
    Bullet : Cast H&G 68 style thrown from a MiHec mold (Solid Pin)
    P.C. : No Lubed

    Brass : Winchester (WCC) or Federal
    Primers: CCI-300
    Powder: W-231
    Charge: 5.0grs.
    Bullet : Cast TB Bullets 200gr. SWC
    P.C. : Yes

    45ACP Bullet.jpg

    I don't use the data for the powder type and charge

    Brass : Winchester (WCC) or Federal (1X)
    Primers: CCI-300
    Powder: N-310
    Charge: 4.1grs.
    Bullet : Zero 185gr. JHP
    P.C. : No

    Brass : Winchester (WCC) or Federal (1X)
    Primers: CCI-300
    Powder: N-310
    Charge: 4.1grs.
    Bullet : Nosler 185gr. JHP
    P.C. : No

    These seem to work well when shot on a Ransom Rest.
    sorry no chrono data...
    I do know they shot some pretty decent groups consistently.


    -Rock
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I grew up with Hensley and Gibbs molds and the H&G 68 was a standard in Bullseye shooting and maybe still is.

    Also in action shooting, for those who shoot the .45.

    It seems that now, everyone makes a copy mold of the classic H&G 68.

    Lee, Lyman, and Saeco have them.
     

    Speedluvn

    Active Member
    Dec 23, 2019
    340
    Baltimore County
    I grew up with Hensley and Gibbs molds and the H&G 68 was a standard in Bullseye shooting and maybe still is.

    For the benefit of the younger generations, I posted a link which will tell you something about George Hensley and James Gibbs and a list of their molds.

    https://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/hgmoldchart.htm

    Also in action shooting, for those who shoot the .45.

    It seems that now, everyone makes a copy mold of the classic H&G 68.

    Lee, Lyman, and Saeco have them.

    What, if any, is the benefit of this projectile over the round ball? Clean hole in a paper target?
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,731
    Socialist State of Maryland
    What, if any, is the benefit of this projectile over the round ball? Clean hole in a paper target?

    That is exactly why it was designed. It punches holes that have defined edges which make it easier for scoring. As someone said earlier, not all 1911's will feed this bullet. Most new pistols have ramped barrels and enlarged ejection ports which will handle this bullet fine. Older, stock 1911's will have failure to feed and ejection issues especially if you try to eject a loaded round.
     

    Speedluvn

    Active Member
    Dec 23, 2019
    340
    Baltimore County
    I’m interested in this thread because I have an ample supply of Large Pistol Primers and shoot a Colt 1911 series 80. I was looking to obtain more accuracy for the action shooting series. I was looking at various, drop-in/match barrels, improved sights but decided against it. Choosing instead to keep the gun in its original state. The gun belonged to my father. I also noticed how loose the slide/frame tolerance is.
    Instead I decided to work on improving the shooter’s ability.
    I have those semi wad cutters pictured above in 185, 200 and I wanna say in 225 or 230 gr from National Bullet company.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Thank you BiggFoot, John,Bpm32 and Rockzilla for constructive content to this thread.
    I had read about the H&G 68 style mentioned by Rockzilla (your notes and pictures are great) and noticed that this mold plus clones are jacked up in price or unavailable right now.
    I do realize I'll have to "pay to play" to get the pistol/cartridge more accurate than what I have.
    I also can tell that the ATI 1911 will only get me so far. I have a separate task right now to acquire a better quality 1911 for my Anniversary present :)

    This morning I ran out to the Range to shoot the loads of lead Master Cast bullets (200gr) I pictured that I had previously loaded up with 5.0gr W231 a couple years ago.
    Group of 10 was 4.5". It just seemed more consistent, all but 2 of them were within 3". I shot 10 again of the copper washed round nose and it was 6", If I make things fair and eliminate the 2 flyers, it would still be 5" group.

    I took a Browning Buckmark and Ruger 22/45 also to the range with CCI Standard ammo. Shot the Buckmark first with a red dot and it grouped at 1.75". Pulled off the red dot and it grouped 2.5" with the stock sights. The 22/45 grouped 2.5" also with stock sights.

    Just for grins, I shot the Buckmark and Ruger 22/45 one handed @25 yards. The Ruger was all over the place grouping 8" on my first 5 so I put it away. The Buckmark I shot three 5 shot groups and it Grouped at 4", 4" and 4.5". I knew from previously shooting small 6" steel gongs @25 yards that I shot the buckmark better but did not realize how bad I shot with such a light pistol like the 22/45 using one hand. Two hands with the 22/45 I have been fine before. I can stand to get more practice with that Buckmark to improve myself preparing (I hope) for a more accurate 1911 setup (pistol and cartridge)
     

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