Replicating commercial ammo questions

OLM-Medic · Sep 15, 2018

I'm going to start my first batches of reloading soon, after lots of reading, so expect a lot of questions from me lately.

I'm not that interested in experimenting with ammo for accuracy right now, I'm more interested in duplicating factory ammo that I know my guns like already. I'm already satisfied with my DOPE for certain factory loads, and I just want to make them cheaper. I have a few questions in that regard.

1) Where can I find a recipe for common factory match loads? I haven't had much luck finding this info except for super common things like M262 77gr.

2) When replicating a known load that I have already shot (i.e. same powder etc), should I always start at the minimum charge or can I jump right to the factory charge?

BradMacc82 · Sep 15, 2018

Match load ammo, seeing as how many manufacturers like to keep their recipes to themselves (so the competition can't do what you're trying to do) - I wouldn't expect to have much luck there. Get the velocities, and you can pull a few to weigh the charge and attempt to ID the powder, but expect to reverse-engineer the factory load.

ALWAYS work it up (exception being subsonic loads), the hobby isn't forgiving of mistakes. Load up 5 rounds at set charges at a time if you want to cut to the chase, but work it up.

OLM-Medic · Sep 15, 2018

BradMacc82 said:
Match load ammo, seeing as how many manufacturers like to keep their recipes to themselves (so the competition can't do what you're trying to do) - I wouldn't expect to have much luck there. Get the velocities, and you can pull a few to weigh the charge and attempt to ID the powder, but expect to reverse-engineer the factory load.

ALWAYS work it up (exception being subsonic loads), the hobby isn't forgiving of mistakes. Load up 5 rounds at set charges at a time if you want to cut to the chase, but work it up.

I'll work it up then just to be safe.

boule · Sep 15, 2018

Strictly speaking, replicating commercial ammo from the major manufacturers is not really possible (with very few exceptions*). The reason for this is the powder used. When cooking up a batch, various minute variations that you have little control over end up influencing the burn speed of the propellant. Unfortunately, the spread will be so broad that published load data can result in unsafe pressures.
Now, how does the industry deal with this? Given that they don't want to trash or recycle >1to lots of propellant at a time, they just sell it in bulk. Consistent lots get repackaged at the distributor and become your favorite reloading powder that you can buy over the shelf, the other lots go directly to the ammunition manufactures. They are required to do pressure testing on each lot anyways (CIP countries -> by force of law, SAAMI -> don't sue me or EPVAT -> contract), so it is easy to establish loading parameters for each single batch without having to add many more steps to what they are already doing.

You won't always be able to replicate the actual load since you don't have the exact propellant at hand. Best chance is to measure V0, pull apart a few rounds, check the shape and weight of the propellant used and look up the load tables (or check quickload) to find something that will give you the approximate velocity.
But the big question remains - you can usually make ammo perform better, even with inexpensive components, than factory ammo as long as you adjust it to your gun. Why not make up a ladder, check for groups or optimal charge weight and just use whatever your gun likes best? This is usually quicker and more accurate than trying to replicate a factory load for a certain caliber.

So, what particular cartridge or what caliber are you trying to replicate?

Screwtop.243 · Sep 15, 2018

Many years ago, I called Hornady to see if I could ask one of their technicians what they were loading in a certain variety of their factory .22-250 rounds. The polite reply was that they did not disclose such information, much to my shagrin.

So, I pulled one of them and the powder that came out of it was not what I expected (usually used to working with IMR 4064 and Varget at that time). It was a rather fine ball powder.

As for starting out at the minimum charge, I usually just load a few "check charges" at .5 grain increments starting at some point well below the "middle" range of the published data, and then (provided there are no pressure signs) build my ladder starting in the middle of range and work my way up.

DaemonAssassin · Sep 15, 2018

Hornady and others are notorious for using blends of multiple powders, that are created at the powder manufacturing facility. I found that one out when I called them asking about the Hornady Custom 110gr VMax ammo, my 300BLK loves so much.

august1410 · Sep 15, 2018

My 158 grain .357 Magnums are pretty much duplicates of the old CCI Speer Lawman .357 loads....fireballs and all.

Pinecone · Sep 16, 2018

As has been stated, they use powders you cannot get.

And have facilities to test in ways you cannot.

ALWAYS start low and work up. Even if you KNOW that X load is OK, as you might be introducing a variable that can cause issues.

This said, Dan Newberry has figured out a few commercial loads, including FGMM .308

He, with some help, did some work to determine that they used a standard powder, and were able to duplicate it. But it was also, a do not try this at home type of thing.

However, doing so took more work that doing an OCW to come up with an accurate load.

DaemonAssassin · Sep 17, 2018

Pinecone said:
As has been stated, they use powders you cannot get.

And have facilities to test in ways you cannot.

ALWAYS start low and work up. Even if you KNOW that X load is OK, as you might be introducing a variable that can cause issues.

This said, Dan Newberry has figured out a few commercial loads, including FGMM .308

He, with some help, did some work to determine that they used a standard powder, and were able to duplicate it. But it was also, a do not try this at home type of thing.

However, doing so took more work that doing an OCW to come up with an accurate load.

Think you could PM me the articles or links to said info?

boule · Sep 17, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
Think you could PM me the articles or links to said info?

14th Edition of the WW reloading handbook - it shows equivalents to their factory loads.

Dan originally published his efforts on youtube. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDIu6Mivi-Y

The important point: He said the propellant looks, smells and burns like IMR 4064. I would be a little bit wary, cause it might just be the charge he pulled apart :innocent0

Magnumite · Sep 18, 2018

This subject was a little bit of bruha in the gun magazines about 15-20 years ago. It was interesting reading much like this thread. I garnered much of what has been noted here. Basically it went something like this:

Cannister grade powders are just that, cannister grade. They are formulated as such and not just incidents of uniformity;
The factories will not tell you what the powder and charge is because they are using industrial grade, sometimes blended, grade powder(s);
The factory loaders bomb test each lot of powders and at intervals;
See post #8 above...mainly detrermine or experiment with manuals to identify a good known powder and develop a good load to the velocities/accuracy goals you need.

dist1646 · Sep 18, 2018

Specifications for loads change/evolve. As an example, do a simple search for mk118lr load data and you will see that the specs were changed from using RE15 to IMR 4064. Just because a powder looks like a certain type doesn't mean that it is. A good reloading manual is the best place to look for data. The Sierra manual has proved to be pretty good and they have a tech line you can call if you need or want questions answered.

Pinecone · Sep 18, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
Think you could PM me the articles or links to said info?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDIu6Mivi-Y

OLM-Medic · Sep 19, 2018

I've got it folks. I'll just have to find a good load for me and build my new drop chart.

Id like to use a more temperature stable powder anyway.

Pinecone · Sep 20, 2018

OCW

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Replicating commercial ammo questions

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